Do you consider yourself resilient? And what does that even mean to you? In this podcast Resilient Entrepreneurs with Two Four One, we chat with business owners about what resilience means to them and we go deep.
What we've learned running our own business, is you're never alone even when it feels like it. So tune in anytime to this podcast. We're always here for you celebrating resilient entrepreneurs just like you. We're Laura and Vicki from Two Four One - a marketing company for early stage business owners who want to launch, grow and be resilient.
Well, we're thrilled to welcome Dr. Dionne Payn to Resilient Entrepreneurs podcast. Dionne speaks on topics of ethical property investing, affordable housing and ending homelessness. She is the CEO and Founder of High Impact Property Investments and her business specialises in connecting investors with double digit returns. And with projects that provide affordable homes, build communities, and provide inclusive homes for people with disabilities. It's an incredible business and Dionne is the author of Ethical Property Investing the book, it's the Busy Professionals Guide to Double-Digit Returns from Affordable and Sustainable Homes. Dr. Dionne is on a mission to raise 1 billion dollars for ethical property investments by December of 2026 and we're going to talk more about that I hope. She also recently spoke at the global conference of the Ritossa Family Office Summit in Monte Carlo, she was one of only two Australians at that event. And she's really shifting the needle on property investment on the industry internationally, by bringing awareness to the social impact that investors can enjoy while they're also getting their financial returns. Dionne, we really appreciate that your business is a business for good and we hope to talk about the importance of having that triple bottom line in this episode and how to do that. But first of all, we'd love to just get to know you a little bit more. So I happen to have seen in researching your work that you once worked in the pharmaceutical industry, with a focus on natural product chemistry, and you did your doctorate in that field. So do tell us how do you go from that to property investment in sustainable projects?
Well I did my PhD in essentially sugar cane chemistry and it was looking at sugar cane and the waste stream of sugar cane as a source of medicines for diabetes. So that was, I've always had an interest in natural health, my Nan, I would call her a healer, she probably wouldn't call herself that always knew the herbs to take and the remedies to take when we got sick. So that's I think where I got that love of natural remedies from. So it was really cool to come to Australia and get a scholarship for a PhD, doing something that would add value to the Australian sugar industry as well, so that was fun. But then when we came to Australia, we landed in Byron Bay, which is the easternmost point of Australia and it's a really beautiful location. But it's real, it's a really popular tourist location as well and housing affordability is a big thing here, as in, it's not very affordable to live here. So after I finished my PhD and I had children, I wasn't really sure what I was going to do, but I knew that I was going to stay home and raise my kids for a little bit of time. But wanting to be able to purchase a property and not being able to because prices were out of our reach and we were just on one income, which is my husband's income,it made me just want to take the time to learn about creative strategies for getting into property. And so that's how I fell into property developing and you know the first couple of projects that we did it was very much a case of looking after me and mine and earning a return from that and putting us in a better financial position. And then about three projects in, I did a project which was a 10, sorry it was a 14 townhouse development project,so it was bigger than anything I'd done before and it was quite challenging in that respect, I bit off more than I could chew. However, the end result of it was we created affordable owner-occupied and affordable rental homes for people in the community that wouldn't have been able to afford to buy here if they hadn't had this opportunity. So the lesson for me in all of that was wow I can achieve double-digit returns myself as an investor and I can do something that's meaningful for my community and not just my community, there were friends that were able to purchase into that developmentand that really helped to set them up on their journey of financial security as well. So it went from you know, this is something that I'm doing to accumulate money for myself to this is something that I'm doing which has a broader, social good, that's how I’ll say that.
That's an incredible story. I'm still just sitting here like I'm fascinated by property development but I have no understanding of it. How much work did it take for you to research and learn and get into it? And how many mistakes did you make along the way before he got it right? Let's be real, that's a challenge.
It is a real challenge. How much time did it take? Well, I mean, it's a constant learning journey, I'm still learning about it now and even though I'm not actively involved in properly development myself, because I work with developers, I'm still needing to be across what it is that they're doing. So when I talk to investors, I can say in full confidence, well, this is a, this is a good project and these are the returns and this is the impact that they're going to create. So it's constant learning. And look, I've been in the industry for eight years now and I love it. I really do love the creativity of it. When we talk about mistakes, oh my gosh, how long have you got? Suffice to say that there's a, there's a certain personality that you need to have as a property developer. My personality is very much about, you know, how do I make friends and influence people, whereas as a property developer, I felt and I don't think this is the case for everybody, it's quite a generalisation but I felt that I would have to become a much more ruthless, harder person, somebody that's prepared to crack the whip at all costs because at the end of the day if the project, if the numbers don't work, and if you get time delays and that blows out the budget, then as the developer you're the one that's taking all of the risks. So in terms of my personality, and in terms of what I like to do, property development wasn't really my thing but I still really appreciate the creativity of it and the fact that you can see a piece of vacant land which has got nothing on it and then 18 months later there's something on it, and there's money in the bank as well. So I have a lot of respect for property developers, and I have a lot of respect for property developers that are creating projects that have that social and environmental impact as well, because the traditional way of doing property development is just to, you know, slap some houses on a site and hope for the best whereas making the commitment to something bigger than just the financial return is pretty cool.
Yeah because there is a lot of focus on the financial return for a lot of developers, I'm sure right? So it's, it's finding the ones that are aligned with your purpose of social impact. That I think is the key and building those relationships that you find over time, yeah, yeah, I get that, I get that. So how long have you been an entrepreneur, has it been sort of since this point? Or were you an entrepreneur before then?
That is a really good question.
Was it something back to your childhood, you know, some of us had lemonade stands or any of that?
Well funny you say that actually, because I did have a stint making soap, soap and candles and things like that and that was after I'd finished university and it was a bit of a side hustle thing that I had going on. And I'd take them to craft fairs and things like that but that actually started, it’s a funny story, that started because I was somewhere and just, it was a shopping center and I just wandered past this store which had this bounty of soaps and they smelled beautiful. They were all handmade soaps and I was like, Wow, that's amazing you know, how do you do that? And the guy said to me, don't you worry yourself about that you wouldn't be able to do it. And I was so offended. So I was like, I didn't say this but in my head, I was like, Screw you. I am going to find out how to make soap and I'm going to have a soap making business so I did and it was an interesting journey. I was actually scared of selling so I didn't do as well as I could have done in that but people got lots of soap and candles for presents.
There's so much in that story Dionne. I mean I love how the ego drives us, you know, especially when we're young and impressionable. All it takes is for one person to say you can't do it and I'll show you. How many of us have done that right? And that's fantastic and so you've had that entrepreneurial spirit, it sounds like you're an unintentional entrepreneur.
I think so, I think I've stumbled, I mean, the [a]thing for me is around the selling. It took me a long time to realise that selling was actually influencing somebody to do something for their benefit. I probably haven't, that's not the real definition of sales but essentially what I believe now is that if you have a problem and I can solve your problem and you're willing to pay for that problem to be solved, then that's a sale right? So I've got really good at doing that in the context of, We've got an affordable housing crisis, we've got a climate crisis, how can we build in a way that it can provide some relief for both of those? That's the problem. And then on the other side you've got investors, and they're wanting to achieve good returns on the work that they do. And it's like, well, I have a solution for that, there's developers that are doing really well, they've got the track record of creating these double-digit returns, how about I match you so that you have the benefit of that, and then everybody gets to benefit from that. So that's my whole sort of journey through sales going from oh, gosh, I feel like I'm pushing something on somebody, to problem-solution.
I like that view. I like that view a lot. Because I think as entrepreneurs, the thing that we don't like the most is the sale. It's hard. You know, we want to build relationships. And there's the marketing side, well we're from marketing background so that, to us is natural, but to actually sell challenge, because there's a lot of negativity around sales, right? We think of it as sleazy or we think of it as pushy, or we think of it as you know, just money grabbing as much as possible, but rather, I like the way you put it. It's just matching the right people together. It's just matchmaking. It's very simple. I like that.
Oh I was gonna say, I feel like I'm quite good at matchmaking, a couple of friends have, I've been able to partner them off with other people. I quite like that!
Oh, that's your superpower then!
I have someone I could introduce you to potentially as a candidate. That's fantastic. You're the friend that everybody wants to have, as a single person.
I know who would just be the perfect person for you.
I love it. I love it. That is a superpower. You have that foresight, I love it. So what's been your biggest business achievement to date as an entrepreneur?
Hmm, there's been a few. Look the 14 townhouse project was massive, because it wasn't just, it wasn't just the action of doing that,it wasn't just the money,it wasn't just the community stuff but it was the shift of mindset for me from, you know, you can't make money and be in service to you can have both. You can be in service, and you can make money. And actually, that's the responsible thing to do because the other way of doing it is not sustainable, not financially sustainable, ends up in burnout, and doesn't have the impact that you could actually have. So I would say, that's the biggest success that I've had, just because it was really that mindset shift. But some other pretty cool stuff that I've done recently, I've got to stage three in the Telstra Business Awards so I'm just waiting to hear back on the next stage.
Congratulations!
Go High Impact Property Investments,and also the Australian Small Business, Australian Women's Small Business Champions Award. So we've been awarded, well, we're a finalist in that and then we go to the award ceremony in November so that's pretty cool too. Thank you. It's the recognition that we're doing good work and we're making a difference and at the same time, I've got a hunger to do more like we're not finished yet.
Yeah. How big is your team Dionne?
Oh, teeny tiny.
I just wanted to highlight that, because people who are listening may think, oh, there's a big firm behind all this, and you're a wonderful example of how, you know, a small team can have massive might.
Absolutely, I mean, there's myself and we've got an Executive Assistant, we've got a Customer Support, I actually call her the Customer Love Assistant and we've got somebody that helps us with content creation as well. So yeah, I mean, the relationship side of things, because I see my role as really building relationships that's something that I want to be doing then there's support that's needed around that. And I guess the biggest thing for me as well is that the clients that we have, we get to champion them so I'm quite active on social media on LinkedIn, for example, just talking about the successes that our clients are getting because their success really makes a difference to the community.
Where do people find you on LinkedIn? Whilst we're talking about it.
Oh, so they can search for me. Dionne Payn, D I O N N E P A Y N. And yeah, they'll find me there. I'll give you a link after this as well.
And it will be in the show notes so that's fantastic. And also, can we just flip back a little bit to where you were talking about the mindset of you can't be in service and make a profit? What was it that shifted for you to get to where you are? Now, I think that's one piece that a lot of people struggle with when they're in the service industry where they want to do better for the world, but they feel like they shouldn't be profiting from it.
That's a good question. Look, one piece of advice I can give is to attend personal development courses. I have and I've had coaching, I'm actually working with a coach at the moment to get to that next level of business growth. And it's just really helpful to see the patterns, for somebody else to see the patterns or for you to have an experience of the games that you play, because there's the saying ‘how you do one thing is how you do everything’. So if you're not being successful in a particular area and it relates to a game that you're playing, well how do you change that game, but it's often having that time away from the business of business, to be able to look closely into what it is that's happening. or my journey, and I don't mind sharing this, I realised recently that I like to keep myself busy doing stuff I, I you know, I have this, I think it was my nan, actually, my nan who had the amazing talent with herbs, but also instilled in me that hard work was really important. So as a result I've done a lot of hard work over the past few years and it feels like, or my experience was, you know, I have to work harder, I have to outpace everybody but that was actually coming from a place of I'm not good enough. And so being able to see that, being able to reflect on that, I'm actually, it's interesting because I'm having a bit of a health challenge at the moment where I'm realising that my energy is quite low and I feel, people will talk about this and talk about burnout and I feel that I could be on the brink of burnout. So being able to look at that and go okay, well, that hard work isn't necessarily working, or it's got me to a certain point but it's not going to get me to the rest of where I want to go because I wouldn't have the energy to actually do anything. So yeah, that's the, and this is all very fresh and new and quite a recent discovery in the past couple of weeks so I'm still sort of feeling my way through it but what I have recognised is that actually, the gift of the feeling the low energy is how do I actually do my business in a way that is sustainable? And who do I need to bring on the team to make it go to that next level? And that next level is actually really important to me, that next level is the creation of resilient communities all across the world. So communities where we take into account, health and human happiness and nature with regenerative farming and food production and income generation, and transport with zero carbon and zero energy, that kind of thing. So it's a big game to play but if I don't sort this out now, then I'm not going to get there. And it's important to me to get there so in the exploration of what do I actually need to do to, to make that work and part of what I've come to is well, I need to expand the team, we need to make sure we've got really strong systems in place, and then from there, then that's sustainable for me in terms of my energy levels and we can achieve the big goals that we've got. But without that time away, and that self exploration, and having a coach, having a guide to sort of walk me through it, I don't think that I would have got there.
I'm breathing it all in as you're speaking. It just feels so right. It feels as I hear you talking about the process that you're going through, and definitely something that a lot of us can relate to, and it feels so good for you to have that clarity and it's also inspiring, I think, for others who are still seeking clarity and I couldn't agree more, having a coach is such an important thing. And you talk about resilient communities that you want to build and be part of, how do you describe resilience? What's your take on it because you're also talking about burnout and some people think resilience is just pushing through and getting it done. I'm guessing that's probably not your definition.
Oh no. I think I can illustrate that point by telling you two stories. So the first, as a child, I grew up in a church community and even though we as a family didn't have much money, and we always looked after people that were less fortunate than us, and we were always looked after within that church community. So that was my first experience of community. Now, it came with some other stuff and religious information, which I don't necessarily subscribe to now but that feeling of you know, somebody's got my back. That's resilience. Pardon me for saying, if the sh*t hits the fan, I know who's got my back, that for me is resilience. And then I came to Australia, so you know, quite a few years in between, I studied and married, and all of that, came to Australia, and where we live in Australia, just outside of Byron Bay, it's always had a reputation of being a strong community, a very strong community of people that love the Earth and love the planet and really want to take care of it. And I remember it was when my second child was born, I got a phone call, so he's about four months old, I got a phone call from a girlfriend, whose parents had been pivotal in, well they actually, what happened is they alerted the community, when logging was going to happen. And it was because of their actions, they went and blockaded, and protested and all of that. And it was because of their actions, the forest is now protected. So that's the sort of heritage of that story. And it was my friend, who was the daughter of those activists, she said, Look, you know, there's something else that's happening, and there's coal seam gas mining, there's a company that's bought some land really close to us, it's beautiful agricultural land, it will be very devastating for the community if this is to happen and we're going to protest, and would you like to join us? And I'd already been doing some protesting around coal seam gas mining, you know, sort of going to marches and things like that, marching around climate change, and just saying, Look, this isn't acceptable, let's do something different. And so when she called, and I was like, you know, there's going to be police there, I don't want to get arrested. Anyway, I went there with my both of my kids in tow. So my four-month-old boy on my front in a little, you know, one of those little baby carriers. And we, it was basically a camp that was set up to be there for a temporary basis but every morning we would get up and go down to the gates where the coal seam gas mining company were wanting to go in, and we basically blocked the gate. And that was, I mean, at one point there were 2000 people that were on that site and it was a non-violent protest. And in fact, we had a dawn chorus, we, every morning, we got up and went there and sang at dawn and you know, people were providing food and other people were providing childcare and other people were learning about non-violent protesting and it was just this community of 2000 people, some people came and left, I would definitely came and left I'd spend, you know, a couple of days there, that was about it. But then, sort of the next week when I could I’d go back and basically, there was a day that 8000 riot police were going to come to the site and the New South Wales government actually bought back the license because they didn't want a bloodbath. And because of the media presence around it, like it had gone international. So the whole eyes of the world were on this tiny little village in the hills of Byron Bay and nothing happened because the people said, No, we don't want this and they were actually willing to take action, not just say, we don't want this, but to take action and really stand up for the community that they love. And that has left a lasting impression on me. And that's the power of community for me. So I don't necessarily want to create lots of communities where we're protesting all the time. That's not the point. But it's just that, there's a group of people that have got your back. And also the other story that I want to share with you is again, a Byron Bay story. We recently, February, this year, had severe flooding. It was devastating, it was all down on the east coast, but hit communities here really hard. And it had been quite a divided community before then, because Mullumbimby, which is where I live, is known as the anti-vax capital of the world. So you had some people that were very strongly “we’re not getting vaccinated” and some people who were very strongly well, “we're getting vaccinated and you're being really selfish.” So it was quite divisive and I've never seen anything like that before in this community, it was quite painful. But then the floods happened and all of that just metaphorically washed away and everybody was there to help everybody else. And it didn't matter whether you were vaccinated, had COVID, were coughing on people, it was just like, there is a deluge of mud and crap and whatever in each of our houses, how do we help each other to get through this? And it was sh*t it was sh*t that it happened, it was sh*t that flooding happened but at the same time, it was amazing to see the resilience in the community again. So I have a belief that with what's happening with the climate, these things are gonna happen more frequently and if we can't come together to support each other in that, then what hope do we have? So that's, that for me is what resilient community is all about, just people that are there saying, Yeah, I've got your back no matter what.
Yeah, wow. It reminds me a lot, you know I live in Bermuda and we have hurricanes. And they often brush by us, and it's not much of an event, other than, maybe a few hours without power, and then it's fine. And every once in a while, they'll hit us directly. And we'll get some damage and houses all need to come together, and everyone comes out and checks on the neighbors and clears up the debris and fixes a roof or whatever needs to be done. It's still that community that comes together in a situation is just needed. And that is resilience, and that is the power of community. And we believe very strongly in the power of community and especially in the entrepreneurship world, where we all end up in, it can be very lonely. And finding a community of people who understand that journey, who can help you in that journey makes a huge difference in how successful I think people are in that journey, and how resilient you can be throughout it. Have you built a community of entrepreneurs around you as well? How do you handle the loneliness that can be an entrepreneur?
Me, how do I handle it? Oh, look, I do just join communities. In fact, Vicki and I know each other through our business community. a business accelerator and that's been awesome. I love the fact that we can jump into Facebook and if you've got a problem, I can just ask a question of the community and somebody has been there, done that and could advise on what they did. So, you know, it's things like that, and just knowing that this journey can be lonely but it doesn't have to be and there are people that are willing to do that.
Well, it gives me goosebumps to hear you talk about resilience in that way and the power of community and how community can keep you afloat, and also help you thrive and help you make great change in the world. Can we ask about your book? I'm sure there's a whole episode that could be recorded on the process of writing a book and what you might have learned yourself along the way. Just let us know, what would you say was the main takeaway for you in writing your book? And what would people most look forward to in reading the book?
Well the process of writing the book for me was really great, because it helped me to clarify my ideas and it helped me to piece together the parts of the journey that I didn't necessarily see. So as an example of that, the 14 townhouse project, the builder went broke, I fell out with my joint venture partners, it was really quite painful and I took a little while out of the property development industry to lick my wounds and just go, well what actually happened. And in writing the book and creating that timeline I got to understand that it's almost like it was a predetermined journey and all of those things had to happen for me to get to where I am now. So writing the book was quite cathartic for me actually, it was really cool. Now from the perspective of somebody that's reading it, I would say that property development - it's one of those things if you don't have any insight to property development, it's just, you just don't know. And you don't know what you don't know and so the book helps to demystify that. And for people that are thinking, Well, look, I'd love to invest in some of these projects but I don't know where to start, it's really about well, how do you know what to look for if you decide to invest in a project? And how do you know that the developer has got a really good track record, for example. So I've put together a framework, which is what I talk about in the book, and it's called the ethical framework, and where E is for experience. So knowing what experience you've got as an investor is really important. The track record of the developer is really important and so there's a guide to how to ask the questions of the developer to make sure that you know that they've got that experience as well and done really well. H is for high impact, which is what I call the four pillars. So why do we invest in affordable housing? Why do we invest in disability housing, what are some of the challenges there, I is for investment risk, and how to look out for that and how to know what your risk profile is as an investor, C is for collaboration and having a collaboration team that you trust, and that has got your back is really important. A for aligned values, which kind of links in with the collaboration team as well, you've got to make sure that values are aligned or else it just doesn't work. And L is for legacy, so rather than creating things that are going to fall over, very quickly, it's really about creating things that stand the test of time in the community in which they've been placed as well.
Yeah, I like that. That's amazing. Cool. I want to read your book. I don't know if I want anything to do with property development but I want to read your book..
You might want to invest!
And yeah, maybe, because I think what you're saying with all of those too, it goes with so many other industries, how to partner with anyone, because it's those aligned values, knowing someone's track record, all of the things you said are really important, in no matter what industry. Yeah, and leaving a legacy. I mean, I want to leave a legacy, I think that's something we should all want in our life is to leave a legacy and make sure it's the right impact for the future, for our future generations. For sure.
Yeah, you have such an important message Dionne. And I'm just thrilled that you've written this book because that will certainly help get that message out there to more people internationally, and you're already speaking internationally to some really phenomenal events. And I would hope to see you on the TEDx stage in the near future.
I am hoping for that myself.
Okay, that's good. We'll keep working towards that. And, yeah, it's just been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today about ethical and high impact property investment. There's so much more to talk about but we keep these episodes short and punchy. So we really appreciate your candor and your just being very open, vulnerable, and sharing your experiences as a resilient entrepreneur with us today.
Thank you. And I think that comes down to what individual resilience is all about as well, I think that, there's going to be failures. But another way of looking at failures is that it's just another thing that didn't work. So you're going to pick yourself up and keep going, or you're going to take the hit on the chin and, and leave it there. And resilient people will just go, you know what, I've learned another way in which not to do that. Let's go and find the way in which to do it. And that's important.
Yeah, yep. That's it right there. Fail forward. I like to say fail forward.
Yeah. And then I recognised as well that in hearing other people's stories where I felt inspired, and they've been open and vulnerable as well and that vulnerability really connects you to that person. And it's just, you know, if somebody's saying, Oh, it's all great it’s all great, all great. Well, it's not really helping anybody else to learn either and then, it's a lost opportunity.
Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I think that's what really helps other entrepreneurs, especially ones just starting out or doing their first side hustle and things aren't quite working out. Maybe they're losing more money than they're making and they want to quit. It's that, you know, we've all been there, we've all reached these points, but we've all persevered through in lots of different ways and you just hear somebody else's story and it gives you just that little bit extra to just keep going at it. It’s just on the other side of that failure sometimes where success lies, it can be just right over that fence. So it's just about keep going, persevering and learning and hearing other people's stories really helps I think people to get there faster. Yeah. So thank you so much, Dionne. It was great to talk to you, wish you all the best. Good luck with all the awards and hopefully we'll talk to you again soon.
Yeah, awesome. Thank you both for being such great hosts. Thanks.
Thanks for joining us on Resilient Entrepreneurs, we're Laura and Vicki from Two Four One. We love supporting entrepreneurs, especially with mindset, marketing and motivation which is why we’ve built an incredible community of business founders who meet weekly in the Level-Up League. If you'd like to know more about it, look us up at www.twofouronebranding.com
[a]this is a good section to take as a reel - a perspective on overcoming the fear of selling
