Do you consider yourself resilient and what does that mean to you? In this podcast, Resilient Entrepreneurs with Two Four One, we chat with business owners about what resilience means to them as they share their inspiring stories and life lessons.
What we've learned running our own business, is you're never alone even when it feels like it. So tune in anytime to this podcast. We're always here for you celebrating resilient entrepreneurs just like you. We're Laura and Vicki from Two Four One - a marketing company for early stage business owners who want to launch, grow and be resilient.
Today we are excited to welcome my good friend Sandra DeSilva. She is the founder, CEO and Chief Software Architect of Nova Limited - a software engineering and consulting company she founded in 2006. Nova provides bespoke software development solutions primarily to the reinsurance and capital market sectors worldwide. She works with billion dollar reinsurance startups and has driven the innovation and execution of large enterprise software systems including assisting global Silicon Valley startups. Wow, that is some pretty impressive stuff in your resume. However, I have the privilege of knowing Sandra as a friend and I have to say she's one of the smartest people I know, in fact, I tell pretty much everybody that Sandra. And while software engineering is rather foreign to me, I'll admit entrepreneurship and working with startups isn't so I'm really looking forward to having that conversation with you today. So Sandra, thank you so much for joining us, we are thrilled to have you on our podcast.
Thank you for having me, this is great. Appreciate being part of this.
So give us a little background on you. I mean, you started Nova 17 years ago now. So give us a little background on you and how you got there to start in this business?
Oh well, I started my career actually, I was living and working in the United States and I was part of some incredible opportunities, building technology, cutting edge technology and really learning about a lot of the techniques and building quality engineered systems. So a couple of examples, I had worked for companies that develop software that were deployed to NASA and the Pentagon and really just getting some of the… the know-how and insights of building technology. And when I relocated to Bermuda, I just found that there was a gap, there was a gap in local engineering capabilities and so much need and really, it was a supply demand thing. And so I just had the ambition and I thought, “well, okay, well, there's a gap here that needs to be filled” and I enjoy building and architecting and innovating. And so it was a natural fit for me to just say, “right, I'm just gonna do it myself.”
See, I love that! It doesn't matter what industry you're in, every entrepreneur almost says the same thing; I was working in this, I saw this need and I filled the need. I just think that's so amazing.
I have to ask, did you find that it was a real man's world?
It is, continues to be, it was but I never really saw that. I'd have to say, in my younger years, I was quite blinded by all of that, I was quite.. just to me it was about the ones and zeros, it's about “what's the problem? Let's figure that out.” I'm talking to an underwriter, an actuary, financial analyst and like, “Okay what are you doing? Let's optimise this.” I never really looked at who was on the other side of the table and thought “Oh, gosh, there's just a whole bunch of men here and here I am.” I think that never really crossed my mind until perhaps later on in life after certain experiences, but I guess it was but it didn't matter to me.
I love that, exactly. And you're one of the few women in tech that I even know and I think that's amazing and you are so confident in it. And I know you speak at..like today, for instance, you spoke at Bermuda Tech Summit which is a pretty big deal and congratulations on being invited to sit on those panels and to have these high level discussions with people in the industry. But I’d really like to know, go back to Sandra as a child; young Sandra. Were you an entrepreneur from back then? What was your first job? Where did you start out?
I definitely wasn't an entrepreneur thinking back then. So my first job, I think I was 13, 14 and I worked at what you would consider today, the stock picker for Amazon. So I was working for a company that was a pharmaceutical distribution company and I was picking products to fill orders so just like Amazon, you place an order then there's somebody on the other side picking those products and putting them through. And I was one of their most efficient, I guess, workers. And so that is what I did, I just started at a very young age and I just worked. I had that job, I had many other jobs as well, simultaneously as I grew through my teenage years and then into adulthood.
Nice. Was tech something that interested you from young?
Oh well, I have a funny story about that and in fact, I wanted to get into Business Administration and that was what I wanted to do as a career. But I actually had someone who discouraged me in technology, they were a cousin who was very savvy in gaming and coding and that sort of thing as teenagers, and anytime our families would get together I would watch and say, “Oh, I'm interested in that as well.” And I was very very young at that stage and I was discouraged, he’d say “Oh, no, this wouldn't be for you.” And so I don't know, I guess my personality at the time was, “Oh why not? Of course I can.” So I proceeded to exceed him in every single milestone that he made from an education perspective and I just, I guess that's my competitiveness coming out at a young age, that’s what I did.
I love human psychology, what drives us and what motivates us can often be the very thing that people are trying to limit. So fantastic. No personal limitations on that front, just you go for what you want and it works. You stay focused, I mean, you're obviously very focused. Is there any pivot point where you feel like it, you were fully fledged, I'm going to do this for the rest of my career.
Well, so when I went into school and I was taking business administration, I actually took some programming classes because I thought it would be interesting to do that and I excelled so much that the school asked me to become a tutor and to start helping my own peers and it just grew from there and so I changed my major over to Computer Science. And I’ve just never looked back, I always thought that's my destiny.
What do you love most about what you do?
The innovation side of things. So there's a problem and coming up with a very interesting way to solve it whether it's a different business angle to it, whether it's a technology architecture that's very elegant, that's different dynamic. So it's really about coming up with new things and I have never stopped, I've been doing that ever since.
So you say, you work a lot with startups? What is it about startups that interests you?
That there's nothing and they need to create something from nothing and all the challenges that go along with it. So most of the time the technology is never the problem, technology is usually just the time that it takes, the skill that is necessary but with the usual big problem is about people, making sure they stay focused, how will the execution works and all the other elements that go along with it. And so oftentimes, there were a few startup reinsurance companies where not only did I support some of the technology side of things but more of the operations, I get roped into the strategic, get roped into all the other areas to grow the business and it was just so fascinating to me to see how that works, and I'll dive right in to it. So it's just interesting and there's a lot of problems that need to be solved. And so it's really about rolling my sleeves up and saying, “right okay, there's a way to think about this that can be solved.”
Is there a particular experience or startup? I’m fascinated about the Silicon Valley experience but is there anything that comes to mind for you that was remarkable?
Oh gosh, I've had quite a few so I've had a few reinsurance startup companies, I've had this other technology startup that I helped them build their intellectual property, build their day one systems, got them to their capital that they had their first seed capital, I think they got up to 8 million at that time. And so, those were all challenging and great and I really enjoyed those experiences, they are very diverse. But I'd have to say the startup that was the most rewarding for me has been one of my recent spin offs so in addition to my consulting business, I do build product. So I've had a number of products that have been in the market. One is a new one that I'm in the process of spinning out, it's related to the Insurance Linked Securities sector within reinsurance and capital markets. And I'm particularly proud of it because I think it is an elegant solution to meet a very big problem in the market.
Nice, nice. Wow, I know how amazing and smart and incredible you are and I know that you have a number of staff members now that work with you so you built quite a substantial company. But a lot of our listeners to this podcast and the people in our membership are in the startup stages of their business and there's so much we learn when we go through our own startup stage. So what was that like for you? What were your first few months of starting a new business in a new country and all of that? How did that go?
Well, I was very optimistic. For me it was all about finding customers so that's the biggest thing, finding customers, getting the revenue enough to start hiring people and so the first few months was exhilarating but also very terrifying. And there's just a whole plethora of emotions that come from day to day, in fact, you can go through all of those emotions in one day but it's just about understanding what your purpose is and how you want to work with people.[a] And to me it's not just about what you're working and doing, it's about the people, so who you're serving and then staff members if you're so lucky to find people who will be part of your journey with you. And the responsibility that has, I've never taken that lightly and so it's an honour always to be able to work with others and I always try to find others who are smarter than I am so that they bring something to the table. But so it's really about.. it doesn't matter what you're doing, it's about the human element of it and so when I first started, it was just about really recognising how humbling it is to be able to start something and to be able to have others join you towards that mission.
Any advice for people starting out in business? Something to look out for, something to maybe a hurdle to keep an eye out for and to prevent having to jump a hurdle or any one tip that would say, “if you're going to do one thing, do this”
Well, one thing that I maybe did when I first started out and for a number of years after that was really just stay focused on the work. So just the work, the work, the work, the client's needs, needs of employees and all of that and just focusing on that. I didn't spend so much time marketing myself, I didn't spend so much time saying and coming up with that right story, that elevator pitch so it was very difficult to get into the market. And because I always felt that it was such a long road and process, for needing to market yourself over and over again every time that you want to do another project or get another sale or that sort of thing so I think I probably, a hurdle that I would have overcome earlier on in my career would probably be paying more attention on PR and marketing and that sort of thing.[b]
Of course us marketing girls love to hear that. That's exactly what we tell the people that work with us too, the importance of that especially in the early stage when you're still getting discovered. You're not fully, people don’t know you, you're not a household name yet so that marketing is really key to help you just get in those doors a little bit easier. And I love that you as an IT person, as a technology person, you're talking about the human element of everything that you do and the importance of that, I think that's really important to know and to hear from you. But I'd also like to hear from you, what do you do to fill up your cup? Some entrepreneurs have crazy morning rituals that they have to do every day. What do you do for you to keep you at a level that you can lead and be there to show up for for all the people that you work with both clients and staff?
I think it's changed over time. Before I had kids I think I exercised a bit more and I was active. I think having an opportunity for myself and clearing my mind space helped me make sure that I felt good every day. If I think about today, what is my how I fill my cup now is probably the joy that I get from being able to provide for my children and being able to see them thrive and so that keeps me motivated and going, so they're the ones. It's less internal focused and more about them so that's my motivation.
I love that. Family fulfillment can bring a lot of joy and that can bring so much self-satisfaction too. And do you find yourself ever thinking that you're juggling the needs of being a parent versus.. or the needs of your family versus the needs of your work? And if you do ever find yourself in that situation, how do you manage it?
Absolutely. I find myself in that situation all the time. It's about prioritising, it's about recognising [c][d]what is the most important thing and that there needs to be some time, some balance. And being able to recognise there’s some things I'm just going to have to put on the backburner in lieu of the more important thing which to me is family and just making sure things are managed there properly. And so it's a bit of give and take and I think one thing about that is know when to ask for help. So I was traditionally very bad at that, a little stubborn if you will about, “oh I can do it, I can handle it, got it, no problem.” One more thing on my plate, no problem, I'll find the 25th hour in the day and so I would say to find that balance is to be able and willing to ask for help. And so when I was willing to do that, I just found that life opened up so much more and it was that much better, it was a physical weight lifted from your shoulders when you're kind of able and willing to do that and I found that very difficult to do, because I was always someone who just took it on, everybody asked me for help, everybody asked me for guidance and everything. And so a little bit of willingness to ask for help, certainly, in any way, whether it's for children or with family or by personal or career. It's always good to surround yourself with the right network of people.
That's strong advice, really important. So it doesn't sound like you're gonna have a yes to this but I'm still going to ask, “Was there ever a time where you felt like you just wanted to quit? Like this was just too hard, or it wasn't working out, and you were struggling.. maybe in the earlier days? What did you ever have at that moment?
Absolutely. More now than back then.
Like I’m done, I've had enough of this.
Oh my gosh! No but no, I think any entrepreneur has always had that in the back of their mind like “oh my gosh”, especially when something significant may happen and those are just learning experiences. And so I wouldn't be human if I said, “Oh, no, I was always fine. Never, never had a doubt in my career” but definitely when I was younger, I was always like “whatever step away, I'll figure it out, it's all good It's all good” constantly and I never had a shadow of a doubt in my mind about what I was doing or what I was going after and I think as you get older, you think, “Okay well, let's just think about the riskier decisions here.”
Did you become more risk averse as you got older?
I wouldn't say risk averse, I think a bit more willingness to say, okay what are all the different options or let's make sure that I have all the different facts before I make a decision. Not to say, I didn't have all that information before but just kind of be a bit more structured when it [e][f]comes to sort of risk taking where I think in my 20s and 30s I was just like, “Let's go for it” which I think you need as an entrepreneur, I think you need to be able to say and be able to be willing to take risks, be willing to do things and be willing to have that much confidence in yourself that you're able to execute on your vision. Because if you have doubts in the very beginning, those fears will creep in and will become the part of the things that prevent you from being able to move forward and prevent that resilience from actually happening.
Fear is a big one, isn't it? Let's talk a bit about fear, fear of failure, fear of success. What's your experience around that either for yourself or even people who work with you? On your team?
I think fear from the tolerance for failure and the fear of that failure, for me I think and perhaps many entrepreneurs is significantly higher than the tolerance than perhaps others who may not have gone down that path. Who are there to be along the ride for any one business vision and they need to buy into that vision and feel good about that and contributing towards that, but they may not necessarily have the same tolerance levels. And so what I mean, that is, “oh well, something may just not take a couple of weeks to get done, sometimes it'll take a month, sometimes it'll take a year and sometimes I think the fear of failure and constantly being added in order to wait until it actually does materialise and you have some success may not be the same tolerance level and so people's fears of “oh, it won't work” it's only been a week but it's too long for me to wait for things to turn or for something to happen that you're waiting for, whatever it may be.
In my experience, it is fear that holds us back from doing the things that we really want to do, it seems the more important it is for us to do it, the more fear there can be around it. And the fear is often so much worse than the actual event. The fear is stronger than the “what we're fearing.”
Right, right, it can be paralysing. I think I've always chosen things that I felt confident in and so there always is the fear of failure, fear of acceptance, rejection of your ventures not working out, for sure.
What failure mindset do you have? How do you process failure?
I think I like to see what the lesson is, for any one failure, really see how I can turn something around or what I can get out of it, or be willing to have others say, “Hey, this is what I saw” and be willing to listen to others and what they saw as that failure versus how I may be seeing that failure because it'd be surprising how you may be able to see a failure yourself very different from what others see. And so it's about acknowledging that I was willing to take that risk and embracing that and being willing to say, “Okay, well.” Whatever decision it was, whatever forgiveness you need to give yourself to feel like you step out of that and move into a different space, but it's about learning from that and then moving forward.
And what about success? What is success to you?
I don't know if people actually achieve success. I don't know if you can be successful and feel that you are achieving certain milestones, whatever a measure of success is. I don't think I'll ever say “yes I'm the successor, I am successful” I think it's more of, I was able to achieve certain things and goals that I had in my life and my career and my business and I'm grateful for those and I'm going to set the next set of goals. But to me success is feeling happy and content with the people that you have around you and feeling that you can actually pave the way forward for that next person to carry on with what you're doing. And so I’d never really hoard knowledge, I always give that away and to me that is more successful than I don't think I'm successful or not, I'm just, was I able to achieve a milestone or not and to feel good about that.
I love that. “I don't hoard knowledge, I give it away.” I love that you just said that, that's brilliant! So we're just gonna ask if you could jump in that time capsule right now, go back 20 years, just before you started on this journey of entrepreneurship. What advice would you give to your younger self? What did she need to hear from you?
Network! Network, network, network as much as absolutely possible. Don't be afraid to do that. Get out from behind the computer.
That's a good one. Do you like networking? Is that something you enjoy doing?
Over time I have..I was quite an introvert when I started my business and so over time I was able to be and do more of that but I was so shy when I first started.
Oh yeah, I hear that same, same; that networking was terrifying. Vicki will tell her story, she’d prefer to jump out of a plane than to go to a networking event and she actually did that, she did jump out of a plane.
That's me, definitely.
When you’re able to start connecting with people, it's just you realise that is not as daunting.
The change I find since COVID, since so much of our time is spent in Zoom and talking to people this way, I find this networking so much easier. It's less intimidating than being face to face with somebody awkwardly standing, maybe holding a glass of something, trying to have a conversation and other people looking around the room. I feel like this is more, it's an easier way to network. Have you found that COVID changed things at all for you and in your business?
Maybe I can speak to one event that I had recently, where it was an in person event after many years of being just on Zoom calls and that sort of thing. So I personally prefer the in-person rather than the Zoom. There’s some level of comfort with this, I prefer the in-person and I'll give you an example, there was an event that I launched a Diversity and Inclusion charitable organization recently, it's a global organisation and we brought a permit for a chapter here so as the Chairman of that, I had to speak in a room with many peers in the insurance industry. And it was quite daunting to be on the podium and seeing all of them, it's about 100 people standing there and thinking, “Gosh how, this is like networking on steroids right now,” and being up there. And it was finding ways to be my most authentic self so that I could disarm the room and so that's what I chose to do and so that worked and I was like, “Great!” But I think that's perhaps the secret that I found to making networking possible, is to just be fearless, to just bring your authentic self and come what may. And others you might find are not doing that and they're having a hard time networking.
If we can't be yourself then who can we be, right? And I think that we get in the way of ourselves, for those of us who are shy or introverted we're too busy, we're wondering or worrying about how we'll be perceived and actually it makes it a lot worse because if we're conscious and anxious about those things, we won't be perceived well. But like you said, if you come as you, you're happy with you, in your own skin, then people can take you or leave you and 99 out of 100 times, they're going to take you and love you because you're being genuine human.
I find that interaction with those people suddenly changed so if you've had networking opportunity that much easier so that's what I would do and I would just make sure, so rather than I think, oftentimes, I've never had this thought in my career, the imposter syndrome, when you’re in a room and you're not quite sure the technology “Oh, I'm building technology, but I'm not feeling ” but I've never had that impostor syndrome, I've never felt that. But I can understand how when you're networking with someone, and you just feel like, am I saying the right thing to what they may or may not want to hear? And don't worry about it. As an entrepreneur, you don't have to have all the answers.
How did you get to that actual place of being your authentic self? Was there a process or was there something you had to tell yourself? Or did you just make the decision to do that and it worked?
I think my first years, I think it was always very challenging to think about, okay, what are people expecting? I don't know, I don't know, when the switch happened. I just think maybe I was always just bringing my authentic self to the table. Anyway I just kind of go into this mode of “this is what I love to talk about” and so that just naturally brought my personality out versus, so just talk about what you know, and that will automatically bring you to your authentic self I think.
You're leading with your passion, right? People are gonna be drawn to that.
So speaking of your passion Sandra, please tell us about the charity that you've just formed, it sounds fascinating. It’s so topical, it's just so important in life now to be really focusing more on diversity and inclusion.
Yeah, well, I mentioned earlier that I never let the fact that diversity and inclusion was an issue in the industry. I just kind of kept persevering and so it was odd when I then got asked to chair this organisation so essentially, it's an association that they founded in the UK, there was some women who just felt that they couldn't rise in their careers in the insurance industry, it was quite a boys club. And so they got together and they just got together around the supper table and they were able to network and it's grown over the last seven years where now they have branches all over the world in the US and Ireland and Switzerland and France and other jurisdictions. And so, it's about how are we creating an environment of education and elevation and understanding what women need to do and what they need to, how they need to get viewed in the insurance industry, and get to board seats, how are we getting that escalation. And so, I guess I brought my authentic self to different meetings, and that allowed others to get some visibility for them to say, “right, would you like to do that?” So, I'm very honoured, it's a fantastic organisation. But again, someone who's never made it become a problem I'm now hopefully creating a space for people to be able to talk and share and figure out techniques of how to not let that become an issue and how to get more traction into the marketplace. Get women on board seats.
Is it primarily to elevate women or is it also for Black, Indigenous and People of Color?
Yes, it's for diversity broadly speaking. That's right, but the way the founding members, that was their goal back then.
Well, women are changing the world so it starts with us. Unequivocally!
With welcoming others to the table to have those conversations.
Yes, yes. We don’t have to be the problem solvers, we’re the community producers, we create the circles for people to have those meaningful conversations it's been happening since day one, since cave people people days.
Exactly, exactly. So Sandra, we always like to finish off with a question, what does resilience mean to you?
When I think of resilience, I think of how quickly I can bounce back from something that perhaps didn't go the way I hoped and so whether it's a failure or whether it's a decision, or whether it's, whatever it may be, how long does it take me to go back to my neutral and feel good about it. And sometimes, just how thick is my skin, I guess, to kind of take the brunt of things that otherwise would make me feel less than. And so to me, resilience is about finding the shortest time between something happening and just being able to say, “Right, that's fine. Let's move on.” So definitely I am and probably still am quite mushy, not quite thick yet, in my resilient skin, but it's a journey.
And the human part is so much of what you've talked about tonight and the importance of being authentic and being human and in the industry that you are in, I think that's remarkable, too. I mean, I just think you're an amazing person and business owner and boss, leader, speaker, voice for women for others and I think I'm very much excited for you and your success and your future and all the amazing tips and advice you've shared tonight has been so appreciated. Thank you so much for joining us. I really really appreciate you coming on our podcast.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, it’s a good conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. Many more to come I hope.
Thanks for joining us on Resilient Entrepreneurs, we're Laura and Vicki from Two Four One. We love supporting entrepreneurs, especially with mindset, marketing and motivation which is why we’ve built an incredible community of business founders who meet weekly in the Level-Up League. If you'd like to know more about it, look us up at www.twofouronebranding.com
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