Do you consider yourself resilient and what does that mean to you? In this podcast, Resilient Entrepreneurs with Two Four One, we chat with business owners about what resilience means to them as they share their inspiring stories and life lessons.
What we've learned running our own business, is you're never alone even when it feels like it. So tune in anytime to this podcast. We're always here for you celebrating resilient entrepreneurs just like you. We're Laura and Vicki from Two Four One - a marketing company for early stage business owners who want to launch, grow and be resilient.
Transformation Journey is a leader in business transformation, coaching and mentoring and Virginia Walker is the CEO of that company, she champions the concept of thriving. And she's identified four key areas that it's necessary to improve and to get to thriving and I'm really interested to explore what thriving really is. It's not a word that we use a lot in our everyday language. Virginia works in the NDIS Sector (National Disability Insurance Scheme) and she believes it's not enough to provide outstanding services to people living with a disability, for an NDIS organisation to survive, and I imagine this is true for any sector, Virginia says it's essential that you attract the right people and of course operate at a profit. In addition to that, Virginia has experienced in her career running small and medium businesses that it's easy to fall into a trap of putting business and others before your own wellbeing. And she now offers this program for people who want more life balance so she has developed proven shortcuts on how to lead and live life on your own terms and she calls it Thrive on Purpose. So much to delve into here, Virginia welcome! We are excited to share our platform with you today.
And I'm excited to be here. Thank you very much for having me.
So first question I want to know is what do you mean by Thrive on Purpose? What does that statement mean to you? Because I love it.
Thank you, it took quite a while to arrive at that place. For me, it was, I always seem to be able to be one side or the other, I was either delivering on my purpose, working really hard, making sure that everybody was okay or I let go of all of that to do my own thing, look after my own wellbeing, spend time on me, work out what I really wanted. And so I realised through decades - as you can see I didn't turn 21 last year, right, just a few times over, a multiple of 21 so over that time, I've learned that it is possible to do those two things, it is possible to live your purpose and thrive but to do that, you have to put yourself first which seems counterintuitive. And so that's what I passionately believe and like to help others learn the skills and techniques to live.
And you have these key areas that people can focus on to help them achieve that prize?
I guess it depends whether we're talking about an individual or as an organisation. So as an individual, a lot of it is about in the first instance becoming self aware. So why are you doing what you're doing? Is it you’re not doing what you want to be doing? Yes, so there are questions that need, need individuals to take a step back and reflect with some assistance and work out what they like about what they're doing and what they don't like about what they're doing and in their full life, not just their work life. So that's a more individual program and then in a work context, I guess the program that you talked about in the introduction, is where I look at the different areas of a business that need to be, that an organisation needs to pay attention to or leadership team needs to pay attention to in order for the organisation to thrive. And so, that is a program that can start at a number of points depending on what is the.. what is the area causing the biggest concern. So for many organisations when we're working with NDIS participants, National Disability Insurance Scheme participants, financial viability is a big issue. And if that's a big issue, it tends to be the thing that stops everything until you fix it. I call it, I liken it to if somebody has a heart attack, you don't start talking to them about gym membership, they go to emergency, they might be in intensive care and until you've got that part of the program, that part of the recovery complete, you don't move on to rehabilitation and that gym membership or whatever the maintenance program is. So those are the two areas, so as individuals or as an organisation with a program that looks out for what the organisation needs and it starts at that point.
And in both cases, they're looking after themselves first, they're putting themselves first to get to the end goal.
Yes, I mean, my experience as a leader, and it's a lengthy experience as a leader, is when and also working with my clients is when they keep, when I keep self sacrificing, when I see my clients keep self sacrificing, you're not being the leader that you need to be. You're not spending time on the things that you need to spend time on because you will be suffering some form of exhaustion or emotional drain or, and you won't be thinking and behaving as powerfully and as crisply as you could. And so that self care component, seems counterintuitive but actually is the key to unlocking how to be the best you can be as a leader.
If you have a leader who's drained and not self caring, being on that side is not a pleasant experience. So it's a lose-lose all around.
And if you've worked for someone like that, you'll know it's very tiring. And if you are someone like that in your business, then I used to say to myself, you need to look in the mirror if things aren't going well look in the mirror, what is it that you're doing that is showing up around you because as a leader people are looking to you and they will do what you do, not what you say, probably the harshest lesson of leadership. Don’t do what I’m doing, do the other thing that I'm saying!
But it's that accountability, really, it's taking your own personal accountability to what you are doing or not doing to take care so why is it so hard? Like why is it so hard for us as leaders and entrepreneurs are leaders too in industry, why is it so hard for us to put that oxygen mask on first?
Well, I might just pick you up on that point of, we're all actually leaders, as a brother or a sister, parent, even as a child, as an adult child, you can be a leader, people will look to you if you're living a life that they aspire to, they will look to you to see what you do and copy you. So we all are leaders, whatever role we are and I particularly think that entrepreneurs are leaders because of the difference they want to make in the world because people become entrepreneurs because they want to shift something, do something, don't they, change something? So you are a leader as an entrepreneur. So why is it so difficult? I think the reasons are varied. A lot of it comes to what you believe about yourself and what you believe needs to be done to be successful. And so there can be and I'm not going to go into full blown psychology but we all are now much more familiar with the world of neuroscience and we know that the things that we learned as a child, typically show up as an adult, if we don't, if we're not conscious of them. And so not being able to put ourselves first, thinking that we have to please other people, thinking that hard work is the answer, there are many, there's just a few and there are a number of ones that we come up with but they're probably some of the key ones.
I'm fascinated by all things psychology so don't hesitate to bring that on. I love it, I do. I do like to understand why people do the things they do, think the things they think, I'm very fascinated by people. Yeah I really hear you, it is a hard thing and you’re right, entrepreneurs are leaders because we open up doors for others, maybe we employ others at some point in our business or sometimes we stay solo entrepreneurs but we inspire the next to come along and create something, something new and amazing.
Yeah, totally agree.
I was just going to ask, you say that it may not be all about hard work to get to success? Well, we call this podcast Resilient Entrepreneurs, do you have thoughts, a definition perhaps of what resilience is?
Resilience for me is when you choose to hold on to that bigger picture, that bigger reason why you're doing something when it gets really tough. And when you have that purpose or that reason that's bigger than you, when it's not about the short term pain but it's about where you're trying to go then you will do resilient things, you will find a way of getting through. I think the second aspect of resilience is that ability to pull out of it and understand whether you're interpreting things correctly. So there's a psychologist called Rick Hanson, who wrote a very lovely book called Just One Thing and in it he talks about what's the truth. So when something seems really hard or really difficult or you think you're being treated really badly or things are going really well, he’ll say, what's the truth? And often the truth is quite different to how we feel. Yes, so we've.. something has happened and we've made it mean something. And the thing we've made it mean is now the thing that we're experiencing and so what's the truth? And so for me, resilience is about can you pause? Can you distance yourself from what's happening and see whether you're seeing it accurately? And with that new perspective can you do something different? Can you do something different that's going to allow you to get through it a little bit more easily?
Yeah. That's a great definition of resilience. I haven't heard that one before.
All my own work Laura, all my own work.
So talking about your own work, you have a book? Tell us about your book and what's your book all about.
So my book I wrote when I left the corporate world and so that's quite some time ago now, I left about nine years, wow, nine years ago so and I had spent a number of decades in senior leadership and always found myself in this world of transformation, you know, not just a little change, it was where industries were changing, where organisations were shifting, where culture was shifting. So and I became fascinated by change and I got pretty much swept around by it, I was this little ship on an ocean going whoa, how'd you navigate your way through this and some times were good and some times were bad and then when I left the corporate world, I went, wow I needed to make sense of it. And I also wanted to use what I had learned to help others because I'm like, surely it doesn't have to be this hard, if somebody could have helped me work this stuff out when I was there that would have been good, wouldn't it? And so my book is The 10 Myths of Transformation, what we think it's going to be and what it actually is. But it's quite a practical, it's a practical book, it's not a “woowoo” book, it's like, okay, this is the stuff you come up against and this is why you come up against it and what's really going on and here's some suggestions of how you can deal with that differently. And so it's a very much a “how-to” book for those primarily I think in large organisations because that's the world it was written for. And so it's a how-to for those that are in that world of major change.
I love the name - the Truth About Transformation. The truth!
My truth.
And where can people find your book, Virginia?
So it is only available from contacting me. So if you wish to get a copy of my book, please reach out to me at [email protected] and I'd be delighted to send those for whom it is of interest and valuable, a copy. It is my gift to those that are grappling with that world.
Oh, that's amazing! Thank you. I love that. So a question for you Virginia, what would you say is your greatest achievement in business today? What's the story there?
So I talked a little bit about being in the corporate world so when I left the corporate world, I was pretty determined to go on the entrepreneurial journey. I was like I've got all this value to add, surely, people will want it, right? So for a few years, I did all the things. I did what's the sales funnel? What's my target market, what's my.. And I did coach and assist a number of people running businesses, small businesses and but it wasn't financially lucrative, let's just say not even viable, I think probably as my accountants background would tell me and an opportunity came up for me to step off a board of a not-for-profit I was working for, and take over the CEO role. It was an organisation making losses, it was quite large, it had over 400 people and it was not going well. And so it was an opportunity for me to use all those corporate skills in this not-for-profit world that I had grown to really enjoy and want to be part of. And so I became the turnaround CEO for a couple of years and it was a source of such pride that to work with such heart-centred people who want to make a difference in the world, to those who really do it extremely tough and to work with the people in that organisation for us to become commercially viable, and we in the middle of 2020, in the middle of all that COVID stuff you may recall it was pretty bad in 2020, we got employee satisfaction at 85%. And so it was and for me, that was evidence that people were coming on the journey and so we weren't only fixing the commercial side but we were also helping people live their purpose, have meaning in their workplace and for me having workplaces where people thrive is my lifelong passion.
That feels like magic dust that you've just come in and sprinkled because that's a dream come true for so many organisations, non-profit or otherwise.
Yes and it's possible and I've spent a lot of decades working at how to make it possible because it's not obvious, not easy.
Yeah, it's also a question. I’m going to lead us off in a slightly different direction but we have a number of people in either our client base, our membership or listeners to this podcast who have asked us over the years, how do you balance serving a population that can't really afford your services, doesn't have the money, that's why you want to serve them because you want to make a difference in that world? Versus making your profits? Do you have a good answer to that one?
Well, I have an answer. I don't know whether you’ll like it!
The truth can hurt Virginia, we're ready for it.
Yes the truth can hurt. So this goes back to my assertion that when you look after yourself, other things become possible. And so if you are self-sacrificing, so you're not running a viable business because you're helping all those people who don't really have enough money for what you do. Who are you actually serving? Is anybody really, is anybody really getting the most out of it? The reality is that one of the coaching programs that I undertook in the early days, the belief of the person who ran that, which I would subscribe to more fully now is that if people want what you've got, they will find a way of paying for it. If they want the shift that you can offer them, they will find a way of paying for it. If you give it to them for nothing, it has the value of nothing. So we think that people will do what we want to do with and for them, if we make it cheaper, I'm not sure that's true. I'm not sure that's true. If people really want the value that you offer, then they will pay. So there is that Venn diagram that people talk about in business which is, who are the people you are trying to help or you want to help? What are the services you offer them? And what's their preparedness to pay for it? And at the intersection of those three circles, that's your sweet spot as an entrepreneur. Now you can choose if you're very successful to offer special programs or discounts to those that are really struggling or whatever it is. But I think the starting point is, if you're not okay then you won't have a viable business and you will not grow the impact that you want to have as an entrepreneur.
I just want our listeners to sit with that and think about it. It's a hard truth, isn't it? To really think about why did you get into it? And if it's not viable or profitable, maybe that wasn't the driving force but it is the most important force to begin with because without that, you don't have longevity.
Yeah, that's right and you won't end up having the impact, you can't grow. What's it that used to be, I'm showing my age here but in the world of e-commerce, when the world of E was around, if you make a loss on every transaction, then volume doesn't fix it. So if you make a loss in every transaction then 100,000, that means you make 100,000 times that loss, not money. So, that used to be the thing.. nevermind the profit, fill the volume but volume doesn't fix it. So it's, yes, you're right, it's a harsh truth and I don't know that, it doesn't mean that what you're doing is not what you should be doing, it means you haven't found the right audience for what you're doing. Because almost certainly, I look at entrepreneurs from a historical point of view, there were lots of people who knew that the world needed what they had and they never stopped until they found out how to get it to the people who needed it. I mean, you can go back to like electricity, the light bulb, seriously, there were those individuals knew the world wanted or needed or people in the world knew and wanted and needed, what they were creating, or what they were putting out there. They just hadn't found a way to get their message across and so there is that tension between how long can you hang in there until you get your message across? Versus this is just not a viable idea and I should let go of it. And that is the hardest thing about being in business for yourself, for me, the hardest thing.
Yeah, because we know and research shows the first two years of being in any business starting out any business is often not profitable or minimally profitable and a lot of people will want to quit, it's a struggle, it's a really tough time. Our mission is to flip those stats as we love to say, we want people to be able to create viable businesses but also to be able to persevere and be resilient through that especially hard beginning stage where you're still figuring a lot out. Any advice for someone in the nonprofit space or social enterprise space, where they do want profit but their mission is to have a great impact, when they start out, that beginning stage? How do you keep the mask on and keep going when it's really tough and you're trying to make an impact but the finances just aren't coming yet or you haven't quite figured out that sweet spot yet? How do you get through that? Any advice on that?
Well, I guess it depends what your backing is, whether it's your own savings, whether you have people who are going to back you and support you financially. This is the kind of virtual reality world, this is.. I remember listening to a podcast about an entrepreneur and she had a vision for a community that she wanted to give them better access to dance classes, believe it or not, and so she was building an entire platform for this. And so she talked about, she sat down with her father and they worked out that with the savings that she had acquired herself, so she knew she wanted to do this business so she saved up money until she was, Okay, I'm gonna do this now and did work a bit in it and work for someone else at the same time, which particularly those that are younger that's usually the way to go. All in is probably not typically the way to go unless you've got financial backing and then she worked out that if she did what she was planning, she had two years to make it work or two and a half years to make it work and she said, just doing that exercise helped her then let go of that and go, Okay, this is how much I need to live, this is what I'm going to put in my business, I've got two and a half years and that takes the pressure off for me to let all of those learnings flow through, for me to develop what I'm doing, test it, try it. And so I do think there's a, rather than the cross-your-fingers and hoping there's a guardian angel out there somewhere that's going to drop some money into your lap, this is where the hard nosed bit needs to come in, you say how much money do I have? How long is it going to last? Where would I get backers from? There are lots of areas now where you can look for support, you can look to government grants, you can look to angel investors, you can look to, if your idea is well developed. So this goes back to who are you trying to help? How clear is that proposition? Do you know what you want to charge them? How are you going to figure out whether that complex equation works? How are you going to test it? So have I answered your question because I guess the first thing is, be a little bit hard nosed about it so that you can let go and just throw your heart and soul into what you want to do and look for those that are like-minded because they may well want to invest and push your business to the next level.
Sure, because partners can be massively helpful in business. I'm lucky to have one of those. I'm very lucky to have one of those. It's really hard being a solo entrepreneur and self driven and it does take a lot of that. But I like, your saying equally, it's the knowing your mission and purpose and then being able to articulate it well too, especially to investors but also being really serious and practical about the finances and having a runway before you go all in. And I'm a big believer in the side hustle is a fantastic way to start, where you can still have some income coming in and then have a side hustle that can grow into a full time job, which is exactly how I became an entrepreneur. Because that was my life and when the time came, it was like ready there and I just could make the leap into entrepreneurship a whole lot easier. That's great advice, thanks.
You’ve lived it, even better!
Exactly. So in your time as an entrepreneur, as we all know, entrepreneurship is quite the roller coaster. Has there ever been a time when you wanted to quit? Or that you nearly quit?
Oh, about every other week!
That's a good answer. What keeps you going?
So very recently, I went overseas with my partner and he retired at the end of June and so we came back, had the most wonderful, wonderful holiday because it was for him to retire and so we just, it was just magical, magical stuff and we came back and he's saying every day, I don't have to work today. And I'm like, well, you know, maybe I'm not going to work today and he said well you can retire. So I started figuring out how I could live this small life, how I could not do things and I could perhaps and I was juggling all these things and after about four or five weeks, I just realised, this is just not me, it's just not me. I have a passion for enabling workplaces where people thrive, your spark’s still there, it's not gone away, you're not going to stop doing this. And I was talking to a lady that I hadn't spoken to for about 20 years, you know how with LinkedIn you end up connecting up again, and so we spoke and I was telling her that and she goes, I don't want to be rude but it doesn't sound very like you to live this small life. I went no, no, it didn't last very long!
I think it's embracing that roller coaster, it’s embracing the fact that it will be those highs and lows and why are you doing it? And why are you doing it? What is your why? And one of the things that really helped me with that was you go back to your origin story which I think you guys would be familiar with, that concept of going back to your origin story and because I was like, Yeah, well, of course, it's obvious that workplaces should be great places, they should be enjoyable, you should learn and you should grow. I've always believed that and no, I went back and I thought when did I first, what's the very first time I believed that? And I experienced my parents breakup when I was 16 years old and I was working a part time job and schoolwork was just completely overwhelming and I couldn't see a way out, and I got lucky and I talked to a careers master who put me in contact with someone who was supposed to talk me into staying at school, right? But he offered me a job. And so two weeks later, I ended up in the City of London because I lived in England, the City of London with this job as a trainee accountant and it was like I’d died and gone to heaven, I just loved it with the passion. And this workplace had amazing leaders, I didn't know it then, this is way back before diversity was even a thing. This is the City of London and we used to have, we had about six different nationalities in a team of 20. We had a guy with a disability, this was this extraordinary stuff, right? And we all learned and grew and there was a lot of laughter and it changed my life, it completely changed my life. I had no idea accountants were meant to be boring, none.
Yeah, I was gonna say it goes against everything I've ever heard of accounting firms. Doesn't even make sense but I love it.
It took me years to work out that that's not happening and so of course that ignited that I always wanted workplaces to be like that where people learn and grow and it was fun and they didn't hate coming to work there, they love coming to work because it was this supportive community where you all, you thrive together. And so yes, it's a big piece of why I do what I do.
No doubt, no doubt. That's fantastic. What a great story.
Great way to enter the workforce to think that that's normal.
Oh, so lucky. So what are the chances, right? But yes, our stories are our stories, those moments are the ones that determine our purpose in life, don't they? They're the ones. I would encourage your listeners to find there’s, because the power is huge because it goes back to the Why are you doing it? So how do you keep going when it all gets tough? Well, if you know why you do what you do, it becomes easier, much easier.
And I really enjoy the frame that you put to the quitting when you were talking about, well, if I quit, then this is what it looks like. I think it's easy for people to say, well, it's not easy, it's not an easy decision to quit by no means, but if you're at that point and you just think I can't do this anymore, I have to stop doing this. How often do we think about..well, what does that leave me with? What does that mean I will be doing? How often do we think about what's on the other side, we just think this is too hard, I need to stop doing this and I love that you framed it to, well look at the alternative - all of a sudden what you're doing might not seem so bad after all.
I used it in the corporate world I was in, there was a time we were sitting in an airport going around the US and there was a group of about six or eight of us and and everybody's there on their laptops doing emails and saying I hate emails, I'm never gonna do, I don't want this in my life, I hate this, like I wish I could just not do the job, and I looked at them and we're all successful executives, right? And I said, every single one of us could leave this job and live on a shack on the beach, every one of us, you’d have enough money to, you wouldn’t have much but you'd have enough, you would have something and we choose not to. So it's not about what you don't want, working out what you do want is a heck of a lot harder.
Powerful. I love this, yes! Think about it. Think about that.
Absolutely. So we, we so often define where we take the next step by what we don't want but to take the next step based on what you do want, that is scary, silly scary. I don't know why it's so scary but it is.
Well, is it because we are now shining the light on what is so true to what our heart wants that the fear of not getting it once we've seen it, is enormous. Because it's so.. a lot of people in life don't let themselves look at what they truly want because they just assume they won't be able to get to it and they don't want that bitter disappointment.
That's beautiful Vicki, yeah, I would let that one seep as well. Ooh.
I like to encourage people to chase their dreams and to have a dream, to think about deeply, I mean, you're the lady who.. you are the professional who works with people on purpose, on what their purpose is and how to thrive in their purpose, and it's such a great conversation to have with everyone.
Yes, it is and for me, particularly with leaders because they have a ripple effect, that's enormous.
And I think most people want to be more than just a cog in the wheel, right? They want to have more purpose in their life and whether it's just to lead and inspire the people that work with them or to help a business grow and have greater impact, leadership is a very special place to be and conscious leaders are the ones that really make a big impact and change things in the world. I think it's amazing that you get to work with people in that space, the more conscious we get, the more we, bigger, better things that we do and the happier people are. And one of my favourite sayings I read recently is, people don't leave jobs, they leave managers, the leadership is so key within companies because that's why people leave a bad manager. I know a story of a company here that has gone through like 100 staff members in the last decade, it's a revolving door of people and it's all because of one bad manager that's still there, that will not be let go but they're just watching the rest of the staff.
Can we introduce them to Virginia?
The staff want you, the staff want you to come so bad, but do the leaders? They’re not seeing it.
So I was recently working with a business owner and he rang me and said, we've got this problem with this person, this is happening and how do we deal with it? And I said, well, if it's that, that's a serious legal/HR issue so here you go, here's a contact for that. But who's that person, who does the other person work for? And I went, there's your problem there because I said, because it is a problem, because that person has allowed this situation to develop without nipping it in the bud. So I ended up mentoring that individual for a period of time and that individual was really unclear about their role, they were getting massively mixed signals as to whether they should deal with the bad behaviour of an employee, or whether they should do something different, whether they, they were getting these… you should deal with them but don't, they’re our special person so you can't really deal with them, don't be too mean or anything like that. So it's like, well, am I dealing with them? Or am I not dealing with them? Am I allowed to manage them or I not? And so this individual was seriously conflicted and so we worked on how he could resolve that, how it could resolve that conflict and get more clarity about what was expected and then I ended up doing some work with the team so that we could pull some values to the fore and start looking at how they could work with each other, recognising the values. So it's when those things happen, someone leaves or something like this, you can trace it back and there's always something..
Yeah, there’s always an issue, the connection.
There’s always an issue. I use a triangle that I learned from my corporate days. So there's a triangle of.. we think it's motivation so imagine the top of the triangle is Motivation and then, on one side, there's Skills and then the other side, there's Clarity. So you've got Motivation, Skills, and Clarity. And every time we see someone with an issue, we think it's a motivation issue, they don't seem to care, I don't know why they, I don't know why they don't do this thing or why they don't bother about this thing or why they don't care about something, right. And in my experience more than 90 percent of the time, it's a clarity issue, possibly a skills issue but if you have a conversation with someone to be clear on what's expected of them and what success looks like, they will usually tell you if there's a skills issue, they'll go oooh, I don't know how to do that. So okay, now you're dealing with a skills issue and you can help them build the skills. And every now and then, they're clear and they've got the skills and the motivation is gone and that's normally because someone's been in the job too long and they're not being challenged, but that's, that often.
I've always heard, the best advice is to hire for personality and train skills.
Yeah, yeah.
Skills can always be trained like that. It's really easy, especially nowadays, it's so easy to get training in anything.
I would say, I'd add to personality, it's fit, it's value spirit, it's organisational fit. Because you could be a really bubbly, amazing personality that would fit in an advertising agency but wouldn't fit in the dentist or the lawyers or whatever, you can maybe, maybe it depends on the dentist or lawyer but because some people do that, it's like what's your value system? What is it you stand for? What's going to fit with that team? And what do you need to add to that team? So we hear about diversity but very few people think about it so what's the thing you add to your team to enrich the diversity of your team and get some different thinking and ideas happening in there?
Oh, yeah, that is really good advice, I like that a lot. And it's really.. I really love what you're saying about values and the importance of values and all of it because one of the things when Vicki and I started our business that we aligned on right off the bat was values and actually it was the first part of our website that we actually put together was our values. To us, it was so important that we were on the same page with that and then everything else we knew were just gonna fall into place.
So I really appreciate everything that you shared with us today, Virginia, this was a fantastic conversation about values and leadership and transformation and everything and thriving which I want for anybody listening and anybody we ever work with and everybody out there in the world, thriving is really important. Put on the mask first, take care of yourself and your health, your mental health and become strong leaders and create beautiful workplaces that everybody gets to work in, because you're either an entrepreneur or you work for one. So let's all make sure we're out there doing great things in leadership and I really appreciate you and the work that you're doing, Virginia and good luck and hope to speak to you again soon.Thanks so much.
It’s been my absolute pleasure, thank you for having me on. It's been a great conversation. Thank you.
Thank you. Take care.
Thanks for joining us on Resilient Entrepreneurs, we're Laura and Vicki from Two Four One. We love supporting entrepreneurs, especially with mindset, marketing and motivation which is why we’ve built an incredible community of business founders who meet weekly in the Level-Up League. If you'd like to know more about it, look us up at www.twofouronebranding.com
