Welcome to Resilient Entrepreneurs, the podcast where we talk with entrepreneurs and business people from all walks of life and from all around the world, in the hope that something you hear will leave your business a little richer.
Our guest today is the Impact Pilot, sales coach and founder of Jackobs Effect. Tom Jackobs has been an entrepreneur for 30 plus years and he definitely has had more failures than successes in his own words, but he says he wouldn't have it any other way. Tom sold his fitness business, which he owned for nine years, to become the Impact Pilot and that's what we're talking about today, helping entrepreneurs generate more income through better sales strategy and using stories to sell. This is going to be a hot conversation!
You might wonder where the pilot reference comes from? Well, Tom holds a private pilot license for single engine airplanes which was a lifelong dream that he achieved in 2013, 10 years ago. Tom, welcome.
Thanks for having me. Wow, what a great intro.
Fascinating, there seems so many stories to pull out of there already. So let's start at the beginning. Tell us your story, where did you get your start with entrepreneurship? I read that you might have been an aspiring DJ at a young age, tell us a little bit about that start.
Yeah, it was exactly. Two turntables and a mic, I learned to rap, if anybody knows old Run DMC. Anyway, that was not me but I did do homecomings, bar mitzvahs, weddings, when I was 16 years old is when I started that business. So it was a mobile DJ and String Quartet - I played violin and so some of my high school buddies and I; we formed a string quartet. And we offered our services to businesses during the holidays and again, for weddings and things like that. One really interesting story about that, I didn't realise what I was doing at the time but I discovered direct response marketing on my own, but of course others stole that from me but thatâs another story!
You invented it, Tom you invented it!
I invented it, yeah! No I don't want to say that. It was interesting, because I would go, thank you, the Godfather of Direct Response, not Dan Kennedy, itâs Tom Jackobs!
What I would use to do is go through the Sunday newspaper, when there was a Sunday newspaper, and I would go through the wedding announcements, or the engagement announcements, and I would pull out all the brides names, and then I would go to this book called The White Pages.
Oh! Don't show your age now.
Thatâs right! Thatâs right. Nobody knows what it is, right? And what's interesting about the White Pages back then, was that it had the full name, address, and phone number of everybody in town. So I would just look up the bride and I would send her a letter with a demo tape. And that's how I got clients for the mobile DJ and for the string quartet! I didn't realise what I was doing at the time but looking back, I was like, Wow, that's pretty smart. Wonder where I learned that from? That was my first foray into business at 16 and then I went on to university. I still did DJ work while I was at university, but I studied Theatre management, I almost forget because it's been so long ago, I studied Theatre Management, I really did nothing in the theatre after I graduated except I produced a few plays in Chicago, but nothing that could satisfy my two biggest habits in life which are living inside and eating food. No jobs were offered to me as a sustainable income for doing that, so I went into corporate work for 12 years, and I always had a side gig. So I was always doing some type of entrepreneurial thing. I had a blinds business, shutters and blinds, just a bunch of different random, it seemed like random things and it wasn't until the fitness business came about that I went all in on business once and for all. And I quit my highly paid corporate job and opened up this fitness business and within six months I was just about broke!
I was going to ask you how those first two years went for you? And you just answered it.
Yeah, I didn't even make it two years, it was six months. And it eventually came around, but it was at that six month mark that I was just like, What am I doing? I used to handle millions of dollars in budget for this oil and gas company, and I can't even run a small business? It was really demoralising for me and that's when I was told that I should hire a coach. I was like, a what? What's that? I don't need football experience! A business coach, what's that?
And so I ended up hiring a business coach and she's still my business coach to this day, by the way, which is so awesome, we're really good friends, and we have a great relationship.
But it was through then that I learned that I needed to know how to sell better and that sales was really my Achilles heel. I didn't want to be pushy to anybody. I didn't want to be overbearing and make somebody do something that they don't want to do. And of course, that's all the wrong mindset when it comes to selling. And it's the wrong mindset when you're selling a wellness product, or health and wellness product. And that's who I work with now, are health and wellness practitioners. But it was through my own struggles that I was like, Wait a second, this whole mindset of mine is wrong. And so I read a bunch of sales psychology books, I took some courses, and I put everything together and started to come up with my own process to sell. And the second six months was a wonderful turnaround, because the second year of business I did $400,000 of gross revenue, that first year I only did 100 and just barely making rent each month. And it was only because of sales.
Congratulations!
Thanks!
So you give the full credit of success in a business to being able to sell, I imagine?
100%. And that's what we tell every new entrepreneur. Do whatever you can to learn how to sell, because that is the number one skill that you need. And even if you're not going to sell long term, you still need the skill so that you can train others to sell for you.
So what's the secret?
The secret to selling is that it is a process. And once you have your process defined, with the right questions that you're going to ask to create this collaborative conversation about how we're going to fix a problem, then you're going to be successful in sales. And that's what I teach people now is, don't think of yourself as a salesperson, because that has some negative connotations to it, unfortunately, still to this day. But think of yourself as a problem solver. The people that are coming to you have a problem, they may or may not know that they have it. And they may or may not know that it's a big enough problem to spend a couple $1,000 fixing it but that is your job, itâs to find out what the problem is and make sure that the prospect understands how large of a problem that is for them, so that they can make an informed decision whether to purchase your solution or not. That's it. So simple.
It is so simple. I like what you just said about collaborative conversation. The collaborative part is nice, it feels a lot more safe. Sales does feel icky, it feels icky and you feel like you are pestering people. And how many times do we need to reach someone before we make a sale? Because I think that's the part that confuses a lot of entrepreneurs, they think one marketing email should bring them all the sales, right?
If only, if only! Or one direct response letter with a demo tape, when doing wedding gigs!
Now you know, I operate a Call Centre as well where we do follow up calls for folks and lead follow up to book appointments. It takes on average, 10 attempts by phone or text to get somebody to respond after they've initially filled out a form online asking for a response. Isn't that crazy? That's just absolutely bananas to me.
And that's just to get them to respond, not to convert them to a sale, is that what you're saying?
Yeah, just to respond. Yeah, so you can have a conversation, to then book an appointment, and then to have the sales conversation. So in today's age, the whole idea of âbuild it and they will comeâ is completely inaccurate, it's not going to happen, it's not the Field of Dreams. No, it's reality - you have to do the work to get people to book an appointment, even when they've raised up their hand and said, Hey I'm kind of interested but tell me more.
And I did a study, when I first started the Call Centre and Appointment Setting Service, where I called 100 fitness centres and I just focused in on fitness centres because that's the world that I came out of. And so we didn't call them, we filled out the form online of 100 and only 26 responded. And out of those 26, I think it was only 13, responded by phone. And most of them, I think all except two, only called once. Well, I was busy that one time, call me back. And it's like that.
If you don't get hold of that lead within 20 minutes of them filling out a form, they're cold, they're ice cold, they won't even remember filling out the form when you go to book an appointment. It's crazy. Our goal is to get to that lead within 20 minutes and if we don't, we're going to follow up with them 13 times over 30 days. And you know, that's how we have such a good success rate in booking more appointments. That's the reality of sales.
So tell me Tom, on the 13th time you've reached out to somebody, and you and your team are not feeling like you're pestering them, you are just solving their problem and helping them see what a big problem it is, because I'm with you on that, what kind of feedback do you get from the client? Is it a Gee, I'm really glad that you persisted, this is so important to me, or is it something in between? Help us with that? Because on the outside, it sounds like a pester doesn't it?
It does a little bit, but we metre the call so it's not every day for 30 days. So we give it a rest and it's a very short interaction, so it might be a quick text, or it's always a phone call.
Usually, one of two things will happen on that 13th call. One, we don't get any response whatsoever and we just expire it.
Or we do actually get people that have said, Oh my gosh, thank you so much for following up with me, I've been super busy, or I had a death in the family, or whatever happened in their life, but I do want this, please call me back. Because usually the last message that we send is, Hey, I guess you're not interested anymore in fixing this problem so we're going to close out your file at this time. And when when doing follow up, whether that's to get them to book the appointment, the sales appointment, or after the sales appointment, to finalise the sale, it's always really important to keep having those little reminders to them and, and at some point, just kind of give them a line in the sand and say, At this point I guess the problem isn't that big enough for you, so we're gonna stop chasing you down. And typically people will be like, No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, I want it now. And yeah we'll get a few people that will say stop contacting me and use some choice words when we phone them up. I have recordings of those, those are fun. But these are all warm leads coming in, they've all given their phone number, email and name and are expecting a phone call back.
That's the difference. That's the difference that people need to understand. You're not just picking a phone number or calling them and annoying them about a product that they're not at all interested in. This is something that they've expressed interest in, and you're just trying to get them on to the sales call to make the sale. That makes a lot of sense.
So what do you use to collect your leads? What are some ways you recommend people collect those warm leads? Because I think that's an important piece of the sales puzzle too.
A lot of lead generation companies will do the lead generation - Google ads, Facebook ads, TikTok, Instagram, all the different ways of getting leads in and then they'll pull them into a system. We use a system called Lead Maximizer Pro. It is our white labelled version of the Go High Level program that we've customised quite heavily to enable us to make more phone calls and book more appointments. But just a simple CRM, it could be Active Campaign, it could be Keep, Infusionsoft, there's a number of them out there, but there needs to be something other than sticky notes to keep track of the leads, because you're going to need some type of system if you're going to be following up on a consistent and persistent basis to keep track of where people are in the in the process.
Yeah, definitely. Another thing you say that I like is, you incorporate storytelling into sales. Now as a marketer, we incorporate a lot of storytelling and marketing. So what's the difference in sales? How do you do that?
Generally, you have two stories, you have your own personal story and that is meant to create that connection with your prospect so that they get to know, like, and trust you, because those are the three things that you need in order to make a sale, not so much on the like, they just need to know you and trust you most most of the time.
By telling your own personal story of why you're representing this product, why you started this business, why you're doing what you're doing right now, is so important because we often forget, especially B2B, sales, a lot of salespeople think, This is a business why would I need to tell a story, it's a business. At the end of the day, we're selling to people. People sell to people, human to human and to create the human connection, story is the fastest and most effective way of creating that connection between two people. And when you tell a personal story, and it could be a tragedy, which is where most people's minds go, Let me share my story, my rags to riches, my near death experience, or whatever the story is⌠but you can also have the comedies as well. Oftentimes I'll talk about the day that I got my pilot's licence, what a wonderful and yet traumatic day that was for me. And other times in my life where, say my first day of opening a new business, Wow, it's so exciting and then six months after it really sucks, I want to get out of this business. So your life is a roller coaster ride and you can draw from any of those stories to create that connection with the prospect.
So that's the first story to always have. The second story that's very useful is testimonial or case studies of previous clients that you've helped, and having really good succinct stories that follow the hero's journey - and that's the framework that I always use for creating a story. As long as you follow that arc and that process, you're going to create a really cool story that people are gonna lean into and go, Oh, my gosh, oh, you did that with Susan, well gosh, if you did that with Susan, you could probably do that with me. I want to hire you. So that's the power of those two stories.
Tom, you know I want to know the pilot story, don't you?
Of course. So the quick and dirty of it. So when you get your pilot's licence, you train with an instructor for 40 some odd hours, as long as you progress, and then you have the FAA flight instructor, or chief flight examiner, I believe they're called. So they jump in the plane with you and if they ever touch the yoke, you're an instant fail. And so it's a little nerve wracking. They have you go through different things, so I'm going through a procedure of stalling the aeroplane and I wasn't doing it the proper way and we almost went into a circle in a plane that shouldn't do a circle. And the examiner was two seconds away from touching the yoke. And I just changed things real fast and then got control of the plane. I was like, Okay, let's try that again!
So itâs almost like spending nine months going through a training for all that just to have a one second fail.
Not to mention the fact that you might have rolled the plane and (crashed) goodness knows what might have happened out of that.
Well you know, stuff happens.
Fantastic.
Yeah, that was a slight distraction for me when you said, yeah, it was a squirrel squirrel moment. It's like, oh, there was drama in getting the pilot's licence, I need to know what that is.
And you actually are - you hooked her in Tom, I love it. See, it sounds great.
Well, that's a technique to use while storytelling as well, is to leave something dangling, open a loop in people's head, that they'll be, wait a second, tell me more about that. And that's exactly the reaction that you want, when you're in a sales presentation - tell me more about that. Then you know you have the prospect ready to buy.
What I love about it is, it's so authentic, it's you, it's your own story. Even if you're telling a testimonial or case study, you're still involved in that story. And why don't we just want to be authentic with each other and like you said, bring the humanity back into this whole process?
Absolutely. And you can't deny a story. It's really hard to tell if you're lying about that, how rude would that be! So versus giving facts and figures about your product or your service. First of all, that's going to bore people to tears, and second, they can dispute it. Theyâre like, Show us the research on that, really I want to look at that. With a story it's true.
Yeah, and far more interesting. Far more interesting.
What would your view be on using AI? Artificial intelligence in the sales process?
I love it. What's AI? I'm just kidding! Haven't heard of it in the last six months. I love AI. And it's not going to come back and kill us all, it's not that smart, I don't think. But what it enables us to do is do things a lot faster. And so you combine a human with AI and now you can take your productivity and 10 X it almost overnight. In the sales process, I see AI in that initial follow up process to get somebody booked for an appointment. So really good uses, I'm testing that out with my own stuff, to see how well it books and interacts with, and it's just chat, it's not voice. So how does it interact? Does it ask the right questions and learn along the way? So that is one aspect that's really cool and then content is the other thing that people are using it for quite a bit.
I don't suggest that people just take, copy and paste exactly what AI gives you but rather ask it for outlines. Because that is often time for a creative, especially for me, all I need is an outline and then I can just riff on an idea very quickly. But it takes me forever to figure out What should I talk about on this video that I'm going to do? Well, I just go into AI and say, give me 10 topics on sales, Oh, yeah, this one, let me talk about that, 2 seconds, super easy.
Easy and very useful. So before we started the podcast, we always like to ask our guests where they are in the world because we find it fascinating where people are living now in this new world. Vicki and I are on opposite sides of the planet. So Tom, tell us a little bit about where you are now because I think this actually speaks to resilience because you were in the middle of travelling and then COVID ended up shutting everything down. So tell us a little bit about you and where you are and how you got there.
Yes, I am in Taipei, Taiwan. I've been here for three and a half years now. I had never visited Taiwan before, let alone Taipei. I was living in the Philippines in November 2019, I moved to the Philippines to live there for, I was going to live there for a year but then decided to move on and I was gonna go to Bangkok. And in the transition time, I had booked some speaking engagements and some events I was going to attend in the US for a couple of weeks. So I was gonna go, Philippines, US for two weeks and then fly and live in Bangkok. So on March 15, I go to the airport, March 15th 2020, I go to the airport, I'm actually on the last flight out of Cebu International Airport, Cebu Philippines and because they were shutting it down because of COVID. And then I had a two day layover in Taipei and while I was on my wonderful two day layover in Taipei, we ate a lot of really good food, and everything got shut down in the US. All the events I was going to got cancelled, all my speaking engagements got cancelled and I was at this cross point where I was like, Well, do I go back to Houston and wait this thing out for the 14 days that everybody's telling us that it's going to last? Or do I just kind of stay here for the 14 days and figure out how things go here. I was like, Well, itâs so much more interesting here in Taipei, there's so much more to explore. So I decided to stay in Taipei, I just cancelled the rest of my trip and found an AirBnB for a little bit and then eventually got an apartment, got residency, and yeah, it's crazy, living without a brick and mortar business, because when I had the fitness business, I had brick and mortar for 10 years, and I like to travel but I wasn't able to as much as I am now. And living in a location for 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, gives you a completely different aspect and idea of what that culture is all about because now you're living the culture is so fascinating. I've learned so much about different cultures around the world and now I have my list of places that I would love to retire but I'm just going to retire here.
And travel for two or three months at a time to each place.
Exactly. You're living the dream man, you're living the dream!
I was going to ask what's the best part about being an entrepreneur, but I think you've just answered it.
Boom. Freedom, that was my answer. Definitely. The freedom to live where you want, work when you want, do what you want. To me, that's the true meaning of entrepreneurship. Unfortunately, a lot of entrepreneurs get into owning a job, rather than owning a business and so that dream becomes a nightmare very quickly and that's what happened to me until I learned how to systemise my business, so that it could run without me. Thatâs the first thing that every entrepreneur, the second thing every entrepreneur should do. First is, learn how to sell and second is to systemise your business so that it can run without you.
Tell us more. Tell us more because yes, we're on board with this. What was your secret to systemising? Because you've systemised the sales, and you've told us a bit about that, what about systemising the business so it can run without you. You're obviously still supervising, you're still involved on some level
I don't know where I heard this phrase, but you know, trust and verify is kind of my management style. So I'm going to trust that my employees are going to do what they're supposed to do but I'm also going to verify that it was actually done. And now with a process in place, and this is, I totally understand why entrepreneurs don't do this because it is quite a pain in the backend to identify and document every process in the business. And it really hit home for me when I owned the gym and I was travelling and my General Manager called me once, during our normal just check-in calls and she was really upset with the trainers because they didn't know how to turn on the stereo in the morning when they opened, or the lights, which lights to turn on, it's five o'clock in the morning for the facility, I was like, Ah, of course they don't know, there's no process on that, we need to write a process on that. And as silly of an example as that is, you really do need to, Youâre an opener, this is what you need to do. Go over to this light switch, you have a picture of it, and you show which light switches need to be on and then you show a picture of the stereo system and which buttons to press to get the music going.
But what that's going to do for you, now, instead of getting upset at employees for not knowing what to do, now you can go back to the process, you can manage the process and not the people. That becomes a much easier conversation when you're disciplining somebody, youâre going up to them and saying, Hey, I noticed that when you made this call you didn't tick these boxes, was the issue with a process that we didn't document it right? And usually you get this look on their face like, No, I just forgot to look at the process. Oh, okay. So what's our learning here? That I need to do the process or relearn the process. Okay, good. Well, here's a printout of the process, so study it, put it in front of you at all times and you won't mess up again.
And it becomes much easier, like I said, a much easier conversation to talk about the process instead of attacking people.
Yeah. Because managing employees is probably one of the things that prevents a lot of entrepreneurs from taking that next step to really scale their business up. It's one thing to manage your own life, it's a whole other thing when you've got to think about other people and sometimes they just hesitate to do that. But if you think of it in terms of systems, in terms of processes, it makes it a little less scary I think. And I like what you were just saying, it's about the process. And you can say, hey, is there a problem with the process? This is a process, are you unclear about some part of this? Oh, yeah. It's a different response from the employee.
And we have that now in the Call Centre, too. I couldn't imagine it; we have 15, 16 employees, if every time they have a question, they came to me and ask, you know, hit me up on Slack, Hey, Tom, how do I do? Just close the business now!! If that happened, you know, no business owner should be getting a âHow do Iâ phone call at two o'clock in the morning or whenever. Ever, right? Especially when they're on vacation? They should never get a âHow do I?â And that's, as I'm creating in different businesses that I've had, as I was creating documentation, I would set up either a paper or an electronic file called âHow do Iâ and every employee, they would have to, instead of coming to me and saying, Hey, Tom, how do I, theyâd just write it in that book, and then I'll write a process on it, or we'll write a process together on it. So that becomes very easy to document what processes need to be done first, is the ones that people keep asking the same question.
Gold, gold. Now, how long did it take you from starting your sales, let's look at the call centre business. How long did it take you from zero to now as far as getting those systems just so?
Yeah, well, because I learned from past failures, which is part of resilience as well, I started with processes. So from day one, every time I was teaching somebody to do something, I would do a screen recording of it and then they would be responsible for documenting the process in a Word document and then we transition that all online. So now the employees are able to go through and find stuff very easily and the company that we got the software from calls it the Find and Follow process. And so you basically you find the process, so we have to teach them how to find it and then we teach them how to follow it. You do that one time and it doesn't matter what the process is, they've learned now how to Find and Follow. So it streamlines onboarding a new employee and when it costs you a couple of $1,000 to onboard a new employee, if you're not getting them up to speed really, really fast, you're just wasting money and one of the best ways is to show them how to find your processes and how to follow them. And then, you know, it's like giving somebody a loaf of bread or teaching them, or fish or teaching them to fish. I forget the analogy but yeah, you donât want to just give them the fish.
Makes so much sense. I'm just switching gears a little bit, I'd love for you to hop back in a time machine and take yourself back to 18-year-old you; you've had some experience as an entrepreneur, had experience in marketing, right? You've learned a few lessons already. Now you're heading to university and your life's about to take a slightly different direction, but you don't know it yet. What advice would you like to go back and give that 18 year old self?
I would tell 18-year-old me to say yes, more. Yes to opportunities every time. You think back to what opportunities are missed, and oftentimes, we don't know what opportunities are missed because we're not looking for opportunities. So number one is to be very clear on what opportunities you're open to. And once you're clear in your head, you picture, Iâll give the example when I was working with a lot of fitness trainers, if they didn't have a premises already to train out of. I was like, well envision what that looks like. Is it a storefront? Is it in a strip mall? Is it a standalone, is a two story, really visualise what you see your facility to look like. And once you've done that, now these opportunities will start to present themselves to you. Not that just by doing this and manifestation and all this woowoo stuff, that's not the case, it's just that now you're looking for it subconsciously, rather than just, Oh, if something happens it happens.
If you ever dreamt about buying a new car, it's Oh, I want to buy that new Audi that I just saw and now all of a sudden, all you see are these new Audis, right? That's the RAS system, Reticular Activation System in play because now you're open to those visualisations that you've already had, your brain is programmed. So knowing what opportunities that I'm looking for, and that five year plan, that 10 year plan and then as things happen, just say yes, as long as it's not stupid or illegal. Why not? The Thai, I was living in Thailand for a little bit, and the Thai have the saying, âNever try, never knowâ. I think that's beautiful. If you try something once, it doesn't kill you. Don't try it again if you don't like it.
That's a great saying, it's such a peaceful way of saying, âNever try never knowâ. it's not forcing you to do anything, just leaving it open to you to consider. That's beautiful. What positive influences do you have in your life Tom? As far as a favourite book, someone you're following at the moment, on podcasts?
Good question. One of my favourite books, and this is on sales as well, is The Introvertâs Edge to Selling and it's Matthew Pollard, heâs Australian as well, but living in the US. And I'm an introvert and when I read this book, I was like, Yes, thatâs me. I always used my introversion as an excuse why I couldn't be a really top salesperson and this gave me permission now, this book, no introverts actually make better salespeople than extroverts. We love to follow a process and it doesn't matter if we're on or off, we just follow the process, we just do the steps. A lot of extroverted salespeople, it's I was coaching one woman who is an extrovert salesperson, I forget her name, Sharon, let's just say, Sharon, your numbers are quite low, or your outreach on Thursday and Friday of last week, why is that? Oh, my energy level was down and I know that if I made those calls it would just be wasteful. So I'm waiting for my energy level to come back up when I'm really outgoing. And I was like, Lord, are you kidding me? I just make the calls. And he says, like, what about my energy? I was like, Well, screw your energy, make the calls, that's your job, it's a process, say the words that are on the script and just go through it. Why wait for the perfect moment to do something. And I think that's the advantage. It's like the tortoise and the hare, the tortoise is the introvert and the hare is the extrovert. I hope I didn't upset any extroverts.
I love that there's an advantage to being an introvert in sales. I think Laura and I are both resonating with this strongly. Great book recommendation. Thank you for that.
Of course, Tom, we always ask everyone that comes on our podcast, what does resilience mean to you? How do you define it?
I define resilience as getting back up when you fail. And that ability, the more you fail the better you get at getting up. So it's just like working out, you can't work out one time and expect a six pack abs or whatever, you have to do it consistently. So if you're failing consistently, that's a good thing because you're teaching yourself how to get back up, you're teaching yourself what didn't work so you can find what does work. One thing that bothers me to no end is somebody that is just paralysed by fear to try new things because they fear that they're going to fail. Well, 100% it was Wayne Gretzky, 100% of the shots that you don't take, you're gonna lose. So take something, you're bound to be better off. And even if you lose, at least you'll learn something. So for me, resilience is failing, and then getting back up and trying to do that quickly, trying to do that quickly and more frequently.
Oh, it's so true. It's so true. And so many of our great guests have said the same thing. It's a really important thing for everyone to be reminded of, it's okay to fail, don't fear failure, in fact, the faster you can fail, the faster you learn what not to do again, right? And what we've talked about so much today is exactly that, just keep going, keep getting back up, stay resilient, because that's what makes amazing entrepreneurs. And entrepreneurs are the ones that really make change in this world. And we thank you, Tom, for doing your part to make change and help people not fear selling so much, get better at it, keep practising, hey, as introverts we have an advantage, I love knowing that. So thank you so much for sharing that we'll definitely share your book in the show notes. So if anybody is interested in reading that book, any other entrepreneurs out there who are introverts that are avoiding selling as much as we did, here we go, this is the book for you. So really appreciate it Tom, you're amazing, and thank you so much for your time and your energy today. It's been a great conversation.
Thank you so much for having me. I really love the conversation.
Thanks
