Like I said, none of us had a business background and most people don't unfortunately, have people in their families or friends that own seven, eight figure businesses, they just don't. And so you start off a lot like on this island. And so, it took us five, six years to get where we are and I said, well, how can I help somebody save five years of their life if I can just impart some knowledge, some wisdom?
We're your co-hosts, Vicki and Laura, and this is the Resilient Entrepreneurs podcast, the ultimate guide for ambitious business founders and startups. Hear from business heroes who faced unexpected challenges as we unpack how they slayed their dragon and reignite your instinct to conquer your dragon.
In this episode you’ll realise that you will continue to self-sabotage your business if you don’t deal with the personal development work… and the way to overcome your limiting beliefs about networking
Jonathan Clark was a young boy who experienced life without money, sharing a bed with his mom and 3 brothers, at times with no electricity or running water, and his dad suffering post-military PTSD. Now he’s co-founder of a fast-growing architectural and engineering firm, and author of The Little Red Book - a Guide for Aspiring Entrepreneurs.
So yeah, I actually grew up in a small town in Alabama, near Tuscaloosa, Alabama, for those that may know that area. My dad was from Chicago and my mom's and her side of the family was from the Alabama area. And so that's why I ended up growing up in that space. We were a very simple family, my mom has been in banking for over 30 years and my dad has done a lot of different things. One of the things that I think really took a toll on him is being in the military. I think for me it was kind of a plus and also a negative because I learned a lot of discipline from him in that way. But there were times that him and I had difficulty seeing things eye to eye. I know like once he got out of the military when I was young around the age of six, seven, he was kind of struggling with post-traumatic things, so he was kind of in and out of the home at that time. But my mom was the one at that time that was really trying to take care of us. To this day, I still don't see how she did it. I have other siblings, so all boys. At the time it was four boys. And we actually slept in the same bed for a few years. There were a couple of times that our lights had got cut off or we didn't have running water for a couple of days. But my mom, she always made sure that we had a meal and that we were clothed going to school. So I was just super grateful for that. And it made me extremely humble. And I think for me, it was a good thing in terms of seeing the positive out of that. I was able to take that and grow personally, through life lessons. And so just me like wanting to give back, I was thinking about, well, I'm at the age now, I can't work, I can't bring in income, like what is it that can I provide to my parents and my mom to show that I really appreciate the things that they were trying to do for me as a child. And I thought like one of the things I kept hearing my mom talked about all the time was like having a home. And so for me, I'd say, well, one of these days, maybe I just, I'll build you a house and like that'll make you happy and life goes on. And so I really stuck to that. I still remember to this day, like drawing sketches of different little house floor plans on sheets of paper. I think I still got some of those laminated. I'm sure she has them somewhere. And so I kept that idea.
I went through high school. At that time, we had moved to Huntsville, Alabama, which is north of the state. And so I attended a new high school in a new area. But I do remember this one particular teacher named Jeremy Raper. And he had a background in science and physics and stuff like that. And the school at the time was doing this new pilot program because the acronym STEM was a big thing. It was Science, Technology, Engineering, Math. So he was in charge of this new STEM pilot program in his high school. And for an elective, I took that class. And so he noticed that I had a gift for creativity and solving things and being very analytical, actually being able to use both sides of the brain, you would say. And so he said, you know, I don't know if this is interesting to you, but you may want to look at this thing called engineering, it just may fit you very well. And so I took that and then I merged it with my desire to continually work towards building my mom a home, like gaining that knowledge, right. The technical knowledge. And so when I went to college, I studied engineering there, graduated and then started my career. I got licensed in that and then went back to study architecture and ended up getting a license in architecture as well. And so that put me in, I guess, a unicorn position because most people are not both architects and engineers, they're either one or the other. I know very, very, very few that are both. And so that put me in a different position to do what I do now. And so I guess hopefully that answers your questions about my childhood.
The only question I have left is did you build her a home?
Yeah, so actually we're working towards that. So we talk about it a lot when I go back and visit. And so now we're working through designs and things like that. And at some point, when the timing is right, we'll pull the trigger on the construction piece. I think it'll be so cool to have a full circle story. But that's something, yeah, that we talk about quite often.
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think it's worth mentioning that you're still really young and you've achieved all of this already.
Yeah, I appreciate that. Yes, I'm in my 30s, early 30s. So I kind of had a streamlined I would say approach to what I'm doing I knew early on, very early on that I wanted to start a business.
I remember in high school and definitely in college like yeah, I was into sports and I was into all these other sorts of things but for some reason I used to binge watch Shark Tank. I don't know if you all watched that. So Shark Tank was something I watched religiously when it first premiered. And I don't know what was so attractive about it, but today I realized like I was really setting myself up for what I do now. Like just training my mind to be entrepreneurial, to think through solving problems, to help better society, etcetera. So I knew as I was getting licensure and engineering and architecture, at some point I was going to start my own practice and profession. So in 2016, I had went back and connected with 40 different individuals I went to engineering school with. And I told them before we graduated, I think I really want to do this. Here's my plan. And eight of them came back and said, hey, this sounds great. I don't know what we're doing, but let's do it. So, we went through like a two year planning process actually. So in 2016, we laid out the blueprint from what we knew. We didn't have a lot of, none of my partners had really had a lot of experience in business. And so, a lot of stuff we were kind of shooting off the hip and we just had to do a lot of research and a lot of time invested in doing our homework and then decided in 2018 to actually start the LLC. So we did that in 2018, we started it. And now in 2024, we're a seven figure engineering and architecture company and we're growing pretty fast actually.
That's amazing. That's really exciting. I think engineering probably trained you up for entrepreneurship even more than you know, because engineering is building, right? So building a building and building a business, like there's so much there that can be easily translated. And you said what I think every entrepreneur absolutely understands is that you figured it out. You had to figure it out. Now you're helping others figure it out. So what led you to that realization that you could and you wanted to help others because you could very easily just stay very busy, I'm sure, in an architectural business.
Yeah, that's also true. There's several answers to that question. The first thing you mentioned about the engineering piece. I would agree, I think engineering helped me to understand that everything that exists in our world is a very broken down simplification of a complex process. So the car that you drive, when you look at it, it's a lot of parts, pieces. It's very complicated. But when you start to break down these different systems and pieces into small, different pieces, it becomes more straightforward. So engineering just really helps you to break down complex things into very simple ways to really work with and understand. So I would agree. You look at a business, there's so much involved with that. There's marketing, there's operations, there's HR, there's legal, there's all these different things that school just does not teach you, that you don’t differehave the time to learn all of that in that short amount of time. So it just teaches you how to break down something complex like a business into different sectors that you can learn a little bit as you go, or you can partner with people that specialize in those different areas and you guys work together. To your other point, once I had reached a certain level in my business, I remember having these conversations, and it may be like this, but a lot of people, I'm not sure. Like you talk about, hey, I want to do a business and people are like, yes, that's a good idea. And then you kind of go off and you do some things that you may not have a lot of success. And so when you talk to people, you're either a little bit shy to talk about what you're doing because you haven't really experienced that. Sometimes people are not as supportive because you haven't quite made it yet. So they're not really taking you seriously. Sometimes that can be your own family. And so I remember having those conversations. I would talk to people and they'll say, how's your business going? And it's like, yeah, it's going. And then to the point where I actually jumped in full time, and left my employer, it was this real thing now. And so when people ask, how's your business going? They really wanted to know! It wasn't something that was like an icebreaker.
And so at that point, I kept getting the same questions from other people that wanted to kind of do the same thing in different industries. It was a couple of the same questions - and business is really, how do you find clients? And it's more important, about not necessarily how much you make, but how much you keep. So just a lot of different questions and I realized I kept getting the same - kind of FAQ. So I said well, let me I don't know. Let me try to put it, see what I can answer in a very simplified way. So that is what inspired me to write the book.
I realized when it comes to business and mentors, it can be very difficult to find the right person that can mentor you in business, let alone in life, etcetera. Because not everybody is able and willing. So that's the caveat. And so for me, I did have a team, a group of people that we all kind of strategized to try to help each other. But like I said, none of us had business background and most people don't, unfortunately have people in their families or friends that own seven, eight figure businesses, they just don't. And so you start off a lot like on this island. And so, it took us five, six years to get where we are and I said, well, how can I help somebody save five years of their life if I can just impart some knowledge, some wisdom? That they can expound upon and so I look at it as kind of paying it forward.
Because my whole philosophy around it is If I can help others kind of create success financially for themselves that works in my favor too because as opportunities come about, a lot of times people want to share those opportunities with the people who help them get there so now I'm creating this ecosystem of successful entrepreneurs and now we can collaborate on bigger things together. So it's a win-win for me.
Such an important conversation and I don't think I've ever heard any of our guests frame it that way, Jonathan. I really appreciate that you're seeing such a bigger picture to what you do and why you do it. And you're right, not everybody has the ability and the willingness. I mean, you're a busy guy. You're still building a business, although it's already off the ground and successful at a young age. I keep mentioning the young age because I'm just astounded at how much you've achieved. I mean you got that business up and running with eight partners from uni in your mid-20s. I guess it's more normal now but when I was 20 that was not normal trust me. Just the approach that you have about paying it forward I think it's something that if we all took to heart more, we'd probably find the success came a little easier because we're not focusing on what we can get. We're focusing on what we can give.
And then it's the law of reciprocity in action. I think if more people understood that, what you put out comes back tenfold all the time. I mean, you hear about it in certain religions, we'll have things, teachings around this as well. But it's just that it's natural. When you receive, receive, receive, you want to give back. And we tell that to our clients sometimes too, that, what can you give? What in your business can you give away? For free? What can you do? And we do this podcast because we want to give, like you assistance to other entrepreneurs who are in this stage too. Cause we also work with the startups and entrepreneurship isn't taught in schools, which is my personal passion to figure out a solution for that problem because I believe it should be.
So let's talk about your book and why you wrote the book. So what is the value of that to you and what's come of it since you've written this book?
Since I've written the book, I've gotten great feedback on it from peers, colleagues, other entrepreneurs. It's a conversation starter basically, and it's helped me to have conversations with people and break down certain barriers and allow them to see things in a different perspective.
And I would agree at what you said Laura like most people get in the business that they go in it thinking how much money can I make and what can I get? There's another book called, Bob Burg, it's called The Go-Giver and it's a book that talks about five stratospheric success principles and giving, literally the whole premise of the book is about giving. So I think if you go into business with a giving mindset, it's only a matter of time before the people that you are meant to serve, they show up because they receive the value that you're giving.
Money, for me, it's a value exchange. The more you give, there are people that have money that will gladly give it to you if you can solve the problem that they have. Having the problem solved is more valuable than having the money in their hand. I'll put it that way.
And so the book has really allowed me to enter into different spaces. Now I do speaking engagements at universities. You mentioned universities, Laura. This has really helped me to actually get in front of different sectors of students. So one of the places that I speak at is Atlanta Technical College, which is, there's a class of people in construction. So it's about how to be a general contractor and these things like that. So it's still in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. But what I do is I'm able to speak to the students in the beginning of the class and talk to them about, hey, at some point one day you'll probably own your own general contracting firm. But let's talk about a good foundation and what that looks like. So that you don't spend five years running around trying to solve the same problem. And you can be more successful financially and really help the people whom you're here to serve. So I think that's probably been the biggest immediate impact of what the book has done for me.
Yeah, I'm with you and I think ownership is something that needs to be more understood that, all entrepreneurship is ownership. And when you own your own future, your own success, your own trials and tribulations too, along the way as well, the empowerment that brings. And the importance of different communities understanding that too, I think is key because that increases equity around all of it. Around power, around everything, financial security, wealth distribution, all of it. And that's a conversation we need to have more of. And I believe, talking more about entrepreneurship so that we sort of lift the veil. Like that's what I want to do too. I want to lift the veil. It's like this big curtain and everyone, you can't see behind it, but why are we keeping any, why are we gatekeeping any of these secrets, right? Like let's open the door and be like, Hey this is how, and here's where you can start. So I'd like to talk about some of the starting points, right? So how, what do you tell somebody who's maybe coming to you with that beginning point and a little bit of fear of like, God, I don't know what I'm walking into. Should I do this or should I not?
I'll tell you one of the things that helped me calm that spirit of fear is, I always told myself, if this doesn't work, I can always go back to what I was doing. It's not if I try and fail, I'm going to fall off the face of the earth - that won't happen. And to be very transparent, most business is really about failing forward because it's not if you're going to fail, it's when. And so what makes an entrepreneur really an entrepreneur is how they bounce back from failure. So I would say for that particular person, you have to work on your self-confidence and your self-esteem, your self-image. There's a lot of self-development that has to happen before you can really be successful at business because you can’t manage the type of success and wealth being the same person who you are today. So before you can actually experience that, it has to be self growth. And that involves your self image, your self worth, like all these different things like that. Because that right there determines how well that you're able to grow your business. Because what happens is, you'll continue to self-sabotage before you allow yourself to be successful. So that's critically important.
Jonathan, if I may ask, what was the biggest hurdle for you personally in your development to open yourself up to success?
Yeah, to be fully transparent, I had a bad relationship with money like that was my biggest hurdle and it goes back to mindset. I had to re-evaluate the way that I felt and how I experienced money. I had to get rid of the notion that you have to work really, really, really, really hard for it. I had to get rid of the notion that I'm unworthy of it, like all those sorts of things. And so instead of putting money on a pedestal, it's now a rug under my feet and it's a stepping stone. And I use money to serve people and not the other way around.
How did you get there? How did you get there, Jonathan? Because that's a big one.
It's a huge one. So I would say one of the things that I realized is that, I think this is when it clicked for me, before I started my business, I would work, you would work and it always seemed like no matter how much money you brought in, there was never enough. And so I always wondered, I would have friends and colleagues and family members and they're going on these vacations. They're doing this stuff. They're doing this. And I'm like, my head's down and I'm working hard and it's like, I just felt like I could never get ahead. I would get extremely frustrated and just feel like no matter what I do, I just can't get ahead. And so what I had to realize was it was because I was trying to, I guess the best way I can phrase this, I was trying to solve a spiritual issue through physical means and so I was trying to muscle my way into wealth versus dealing with my mindset around money first. And then the actual realization of what that is, can be experienced, if that makes any sense.
So I'll tell you one of the funny things that I did. One of the very two things, I actually bought play money. There's these little $10,000 things, play money, right? They look super real and I just, I had them all around my house, you know? So I had to become comfortable, just being around money all the time, because in business, I have to ask people to pay me. It's very simple, right? Like I provide a service, you pay me and I can't be timid when it comes to now it's time for that person to pay me. That's just the way business works. And so in order for me to become comfortable with that, I had to visually see money around me all the time and now it just became like a friend of mine versus this master over me, if that makes sense.
Yeah. And I think when you don't come from money, you don't come from a household where talking about money is normal, having a lot of money is normal, having those types of conversations is normal, where a million dollars seems like something only lottery winners have, right? It feels so, so far away and it's absolutely difficult. And I love your idea of having money around the house. I want to steal that idea actually. If you see some in the background of the next couple of podcasts, it'll be thanks to you. My son actually has a rug in his room that's a hundred dollar American bill.
That is the second thing that I did. Mine is not one big bill. It's like a couple of them. I wish I had a picture I could show you now. But literally in my bedroom, I have a rug, it's a money rug. When I step on it right in my mind, money's under my feet. So that's representation.
I love it. I love it. It's such a great, simple idea to help shift the mindset a little bit. And it's also being in those rooms. I like what you said about being in those rooms and being uncomfortable in those rooms. And I think it's important to put ourselves in uncomfortable places because growth happens in those uncomfortable places. You know, if you're in a room where you're constantly comfortable and everyone is just like you on the same level, your opportunities for growth are limited. You're limited. They say, you're most like the five people you're around most of the time. So look around at your friends and you can see yourself. How does one even start to get invited to those spaces?
That's a good question. I would say my experience was a little bit the Law of Attraction and I guess my natural tendency to network. I'll put it this way, whatever you're looking for is also looking for you. So if you really honestly believe that, whether you believe it or not everything's energy, right? So it's the energy you put out is what you, is what you get back. I was like that Laura. I was the valedictorian of my school, I was always the smart person, right? And so I rarely had people around me that could challenge me. And that was a thing for me. I wanted someone else that I could learn from, I didn't want to have to be the person always issuing out the here's the plan. And so I yearned for that and then I stumbled upon an entrepreneur networking group through LinkedIn. I'm sure there are a lot of places there. You got these apps now like Meetup and all these different things and LinkedIn is a good place to network with people. There's a bunch of different conferences. They're out there. I think it's just a matter of intentionality around finding those people and believe me, the groups will show up.
Yeah, I love that. The intentionality of it. It is important. Some people don't like networking. They fear networking, have to talk to strangers. It sounds horrible.
That's a funny phenomenon because money doesn't move itself. People move money, right? So in order to get money you have to serve people, which means you have to network and talk with people like you, have to find out more about them, what their problem is, etc etc. So I would say it would be very hard, it's not impossible, but I think it's very hard to grow and scale a business if you don't like people or at least talking to people.
Okay, so that's a tip. If you're out there wondering if you should be an entrepreneur, if you really want to be a recluse, it might not be the job for you. You might want a remote job instead.
Yeah, not even just the clients themselves, as you scale a business, you need a team. So you still have to work with people no matter what you do.
Absolutely. Entrepreneurs are leaders, right? We know that you have to lead somebody somewhere, even if you're a solo entrepreneur. So now, Jonathan,the floor is yours. It's your turn to ask us a question, anything at all.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and I'm glad I'm able to add some value. This is something I guess, new that I've been asking other entrepreneurs because it's part of my personal journey. As I reach new levels of success, I realize it's actually really tied to my spiritual growth. So as other entrepreneurs, how do you see spiritual growth and business tying together for yourselves and what that means for you?
That's such a great question and one we don't often talk about. So thank you for the opportunity to talk about it. It's funny, I had this thought just yesterday while I was driving, is that I'm agnostic in my beliefs generally. So I don't tie myself to a particular religion or that, but then I thought, I think there's something great about being agnostic because it allows me to be very curious about a lot. Curious as to how to solve problems, how to work with clients, how to do strategy, because Vicki and I, a lot of what we do is strategy. So developing our business and ourselves by having that curious mindset and not being tied to, this is our belief, this is how you do it, this is the way, but rather what way is gonna work for this person, this situation, this business, this entrepreneur, this community organization and just leaning into the learning and the curiosity, I think has also helped me develop as a person. Because I've learned so many amazing, incredible things that if I hadn't asked the questions, I would never have learned or connected with the people that I've connected with because of it. So that for me has been my major spiritual journey is opening my mind up to everything in the universe really and having great cool conversations like this and sometimes talking about mental health and sometimes talking about other things that are also really important because entrepreneurship is life and life is entrepreneurship. You can't really separate the two.
Yeah, that's so cool. It's super flexible in your approaches.
Yeah, I can really see that for you. And I love your answer and the way you were thinking about the flexibility and how you are curious. And I love that about you, partner. We're business partners as well as podcast co-host partners so, you know, we get to spend a good amount of time working and growing together. And Jonathan, you'd mentioned earlier about personal development being really the foundation of your business success. And that's really where I'm going to lean into with the answer to your question is that for me, spiritual development is personal development and vice versa. I'm a Life Coach as well as what I do here with Laura and it's a continuous journey of inner growth, understanding who I am and where I come from and that's the spirituality for me is, what's in the heart and what does the heart want and how does my heart connect with others? And for me, dropping into the heart is really a spiritual journey because I'm very much a head person, always have been. So yeah, how does that connect with business? I really am already noticing that the more I can open my heart and connect with people from that space, the business opens up too. Like you said, it's almost like this money energy, the heart energy, the spirituality. Some people might not appreciate hearing the word money and spirituality in the same sentence, but based on the conversations we've been having today, I feel like they actually are quite interconnected.
Wow, that's an incredible answer also. I think what I heard from that is allowing yourself to be vulnerable, actually helps your business grow.
100%. Yes, said it so succinctly.
We definitely agree. That's true. Honesty, integrity, authenticity, vulnerability. These are the things we lean into and we recommend our clients lean into too. And often people who start out in entrepreneurship, they try to hide behind their brand. They don't want to be the face of their brand. They don't want to do the reels or the TikToks because that’s really putting yourself out there. And I get that that is really, really scary, but it's literally that, that attracts people to you. So it doesn't matter if you're quirky, you don't have to be perfect. You can stumble and fall and figure things out. And like you said earlier, fail forward, failure is not a matter of if it's when it's so true in business. And it's just like, it's about the mindset. How do you get back up? How do you keep going? How do you stay resilient? Because, hey, that's why we're here. That's why we're doing this podcast. It's about resilience because we know that is the key trait for any entrepreneur is to be resilient. It is the thing that keeps you going when life times get tough, when global pandemics happen, when economy shifts, when your personal life shifts and things change. It's about staying resilient and keeping going and allowing yourself the grace to pick it up and find a way reaching out to others, networking, so many of the things we said today, working on mindset, getting coaching, getting counseling if you need it, whatever it is, finding your way, finding your people, finding your community is always the key to being a resilient entrepreneur. And Jonathan, you embody that and I love that you're helping others figure it out. It's so important, especially in those early stages when we're all stumbling around trying to figure out HR and accounting and marketing and all the things either we know or we don't know. And it's great that people like you are out there to help. So thank you so much for your time, your expertise, your great stories, and your wisdom. We really appreciate you.
I really thank you all and I feel very lifted. This conversation was amazing.
