Laura
Let's start at the beginning because so much of who we become later in life is influenced by the childhood experiences that we had.
And any insights into maybe where entrepreneurism may have had a little spark back then?
Jean-François
So I started working at 14, a summer job and at 15 I had another summer job and by 16 I was opening my retirement savings plan, prompted by my mom and I think that was really good. So quite from an early age, despite the fact that my parents were making really good, really good salaries, I was earning my keep and making my own money and starting to save for a very distant future. So it seemed so at the time, maybe less so now.
And I suppose other than this notion of understanding and valuing earning one's money, one of the things that was really apparent especially when I was a lifeguard, I was a lifeguard for seven, eight years, so I managed swimming pools and I managed teams of lifeguards and I gave swimming lessons to loads of children. At some point, maybe four years in, we realised that we were being terribly paid. The City was basically outsourcing the contract and our remuneration was quite low.
And so I looked around the other towns nearby and I decided to form a union. So I spearheaded the movement to unionise the, the labour, the lifeguard labour in my town. I was like 18 or something like that. And I remember we were on TV. We went on strike during the hottest part of the summer.
And yeah, I guess there was this moment where I understood that the need of the collective was quite important and if we all pulled together that we could really achieve fantastic things. And I suppose, you know, fast forward, 20 odd years later, We Are Because You Are, the name of our business and that recognises the power of the collective.
Vicki
Hmm. Quite the advocate at a youth. I have to ask, does that retirement savings account still exist?
Jean-François
It does. Yeah, it's doing quite well. I've been in England now for 10 years. I live in London. What was the term that my mom used to say in French? She said, your money is going to make babies. You just need to leave it there.
So the money that I've put, started putting there at 16 has made babies. And so, yeah, I think I'm in a really fortunate position. I'm very grateful to my parents for not handing everything over to me and instilling definitely a work ethic into me, not taking things for granted.
Vicki
Can I dive right into the vulnerability piece of this conversation? Because that's something that you speak eloquently on. How does vulnerability show up in your world?
Jean-François
Just opening up about how I feel. I think by nature people know how I feel quite rapidly, quite transparent with my emotions even when I'm not, even when I wasn't as aware of them, when they would surface without me noticing. I feel I've trained myself, I suppose, realising what's happening in the moment and putting a name on how I'm feeling, which has been very helpful, especially as I've matured and grown as an adult and now that I'm running a business as well. But I'm still a very, I suppose fiery person. I also like spicy foods, maybe there's a connection there.
Vicki
And you have French in you too, so there's a bit of fire there.
Jean-François
Yes, I have French. There's definitely a Latin component to this. But I suppose vulnerability shows up for me, now more than ever and being able to recognise what's happening inside my body in terms of emotions, being able to name what's happening and then having the courage to speak about it. And something I stumbled across actually quite recently is nonviolent communication, which is a framework by which you talk to people in a way that's not, it doesn't feel like you're attacking them. So it's very much talking in the first person about what you're observing, what you're feeling as a result, and expressing your needs. So it's quite an interesting journey, but all of that I think stems from this notion of being able to open up to let people in. And I've noticed that the more I open up, the more I'm vulnerable, the more people respond in kind, which breeds just better communication and better progress as a result.
Vicki
So true.
Laura
I'm wondering if there was a, like, what led you to this epiphany that vulnerability is a good thing? Because I feel like for a lot of people, we take it as a bad thing to be so vulnerable. You know, we try to protect ourselves. We have a hard outer shell. i think a lot of leaders, a lot of entrepreneurs will put on a tough face and tough it out and deal with life's challenges that way. Was there a time, a catalyst that got you to realise that this is the only way forward? What happened in that moment, if you don't mind sharing.
Jean-François
Yeah, of course. The first thing that I want to say, and I kind of think that's true for everyone, but I can only speak for myself, but I'm afraid, like all the time. Fear is a presence in my life on a daily basis. Sometimes it hides, right? Sometimes it feels like anxiety or stress or it's anger, but all of that is, at least to me, fear-based.
And one thing again that I've recently come to terms with is that fear is baked into who we are as people for a very good reason, right? From an evolutionary standpoint, it's the thing that goes like, hey, maybe I don't want to step out of the cave at night because there's a sabre tooth tiger that might just eat me, right? And it also serves to protect you from something. So it's quite a necessary emotion, but who said that famous phrase, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
I don't know if I fully agree with this. I think it's about understanding and knowing that fear is an important component. It will always be there and actually getting comfortable with being afraid.
And I suppose the catalyst for that, to answer your question, Laura, is probably my burnout. So when I crashed out of my corporate career in 2020, something just broke. I just knew I needed to exit this very lucrative, very high profile corporate job, this corporate career had been on for 14 years without really any safety net in the middle of the pandemic.
And I did a lot of soul searching, read a lot of self-help books, The Untethered Soul was a very important book for me at that moment. I watched a lot of TEDx Talks. One of them was Brene Brown's, two TEDx Talks on shame and vulnerability. So that probably played a role in shaping my understanding of vulnerability. There's also the brilliant Ethan Hawke one where he talks about ‘playing the clown’, just being okay with being creative and taking chances and taking risks and getting goosebumps talking about this because… I'm getting emotional. This was like a very challenging moment in my life and I suppose the content I needed found me. I just started building on that because all those things resonated with me. I also knew I think you know the facts were that whatever I had been dealing with for such a long time just wasn't fit for purpose for the life I wanted to lead anymore.
Vicki
So I'm hearing that burnout was the pivot point for you to take stock of who you were being and what you wanted in life.
Jean-François
Yeah. There's like Before Burnout and After Burnout. It's weird because I wouldn't wish that on anyone, surely. It wasn't a pleasant experience to go through, but I also wouldn't be the person I am today without it, so there's quite a, I suppose a beautiful symmetric paradox about it. And I think life is really good at those beautiful symmetric paradoxes. I lost my mother when I was really, really young. And the person I call mom now, came into my life when I was three months old. She chose to take care of me as a newborn. She didn't have me. And to me, that's a sliding door moment.
My life would have been entirely different. I struggled a lot in my relationship with this person, but without her I wouldn't be the man I am today. I think a pivotal moment, it was quite difficult, but at the same time really made me into who I am today.
I'm sure you two have at least one moment like that in your lives. Like what is it for you? That was like that sliding door moment and that transformed everything. I'm curious.
Laura
I love when a guest throws it back on us. We get to be introspective in our own lives. Because absolutely, I think that's really real for everybody. I think anybody can relate to that. And those pivotal moments are exactly the things that change the trajectory of our lives. And when we look back, we can often realise, like, for how much better? Because that's what resilience is, right? It's going through something and then building on the back of it something better. I think for me, one of my biggest ones was becoming a single mom.
At a time when I was an early stage entrepreneur, I was still trying to figure things out. had two young babies and a lot of responsibilities. And I had to decide to go back into the workforce and get that corporate job, which brought some of the ideas of safety and security and consistency with it, or continuing on this path of entrepreneurship and doing that internal work of figuring out which path to take was that pivotal moment, because I realised that entrepreneurship offered me so much more freedom, a limitless expansion of what I could do with my life. And I chose that path. And of course, it's led me to sitting here today talking to you, which I wouldn't have been on had I chosen the other path. So that was a really big and important one for me to go through. And glad it happened in the end, as difficult as it was at the time.
Jean-François
What about you Vicki?
Vicki
Yeah, thanks for sharing that Laura. It's an important and personal story. I feel like that gift that you had has paid off for me too. There's lots of winners in the gift and I think that's what we're talking about, isn't it? How hardship can be a gift. And when we're in it, it doesn't always feel like that. That's for sure. I've had plenty of those moments. I think the most probably pivotal ones. One would have been, I guess I would call it a mental health break. Just a very dark period, the dark night of the soul, as they say, and just a lot of questioning and self belief, a lack of self belief, a place that I never want to see again yet.
Now with having passed and the maturity and the deeper understanding of how our brain, our psychology, our heart, our soul, our emotions work. I don’t think I'd have that understanding if I hadn't experienced that. and I feel like I can really help people who maybe are leading up to them or are really close to it.
That would be a deep one. Yeah. And then there's been other little ones along the way, but luckily because of that, I can now say whenever it happens, it being the rug gets pulled out from under you. because I think those are the most painful ones, is when you least expect it. And I can say, I've been through that. I can go through anything and this is going to work out. if it, everything works out in the end. So if it hasn't worked out yet, it's not the end. Keep going. It's a gift, there's a gift in here somewhere. Let's look for that.
Jean-François
Yeah, thanks for sharing that both of you. And I think this is interesting because I hear the three of us being vulnerable and opening up. This is topic of this podcast is about resilience through vulnerability- us opening up and sharing something that's deeply personal and putting ourselves in a vulnerable position is, hopefully helping our viewers or listeners, kind of reflect on that and the fact that it can be a safe space and it should feel okay opening up about the challenges, right? Instead of hardening up and protecting yourself and then kind of living in this echo chamber of your mind where you're caught with your own thoughts and I don't know about you, but like my thoughts are like… terrible guides.
The voice in my head rarely gets it right, but always has an opinion. It's like the passenger that's with me when I'm taking my shower and it's thinking about all sorts of things and it goes like, what about this? And then I'm going to get angry at this. And it's really almost insidious how it can take over the control of our lives. opening up and letting...
Being able to hear ourselves speak out loud, especially about the things that are difficult and painful, I believe fundamentally builds resilience because we need each other, right? It's through each other that we recognise who we are and recognise that we're not alone and that actually everybody's going through the same difficult things except slightly differently.
Vicki
Spot on.
Jean-François
We Are Because You Are, by the way.
But that's exactly behind the name, right? The individual and the collective are indivisible. It's a paradoxical as well, because how is it that the individual and the collective can be together to such an extent if there are such different things? But they are. There wouldn't be a society without all the individuals in it. And we couldn't live if we were alone.
Laura
Exactly, you're so exactly right. And I'd love to talk about burnout a little bit more because I think that's something that so many people go through at least at one point in their life. I know I definitely hit a wall at one point a few years ago and I didn't know that it was burnout. I just was like, I need rest. And I just recognised it as I literally couldn't work. I couldn't even open the computer, couldn't function, couldn't do anything for a few days and I figured it out and got back to it. But I didn't have the understanding that that was burnout and what that looked like and what I could to do to help myself through it and move past it and prevent it happening.
So let's talk a little bit about what burnout is. What are the signs? What are some of those recognisable things that anyone listening who hasn't been there or thinks they've been there but not quite sure, what are the signs of burnout? What does it feel like? And how do you recognise it so that they can get a better understanding of what it is?
Jean-François
Yeah, well, I suppose the first thing I would say is definitely Google it because I'm not, I'm not a therapist and I'm not trained to talk professionally about burnout. What I can talk about is how I experienced it. And I think one thing that really stood out to me and it still stands out to me to this day is that nervous fluttering in my chest. Always a bit of anxiety, like it's either a fluttering or it's like a bit of a squeeze right here, that was almost constant. Like constant to the extent that I would need to like to focus on it to realise that it was happening because it was always happening. I suppose Laura, touched on being tired, exhausted, which, again, I suppose goes well with the name burnout, right? You don't have any more energy. A feeling for me of futility. Like I just wasn't being fed by what I was spending most of my time doing. And I generally felt that my flame was just dying, right? What makes me, me? A flame, a soul, spirit. I don't know, I don't know what the right word is, right? For anyone, but everyone's maybe got a version of that in their minds. But you know, what makes you you is no longer being nourished.
And I think burnout happens when that happens continuously, so much so that you don't even notice that it's happening because it's such a regular occurrence that it's constant. And then you just feel, yeah, you're battery drained. Everything was a chore. And then you could become really obsessed, or rather I became really obsessed with controlling as much as I could.
Even when we would take holidays or something like that I needed to feel I had control over very specific things in my life just to feel like I was alive. So yeah, those were kind of the indicators for me. You mentioned Laura that you've gone through it, you've hit a wall. Was that that for you? Like what did that feel like?
Laura
Yeah, it just felt as if I couldn't function in what I normally got joy out of. And I think it was just working too many nights, too many weekends, not taking any time to rest in between. It wasn't that I didn't love what I did, because I'm still doing what I was doing back then, but I was just doing it to the point of exhaustion. I just wasn't finding any balance. And I don't necessarily believe we always have to have perfect balance in life. I don't think it's always, you know, equal play, equal work, equal family equal. It's almost impossible to be equal, but I wasn't balancing. I think, family time, that was it for me. I was realising I was sacrificing a lot of that for the work that needed to be done because I had the fear of if I didn't do the work, I wouldn't get paid and then I couldn't pay my bills. And I had that overwhelm of anxiety, of responsibility. I think that's very normal. I think this place, if you're working like you were in a corporate job where you were sort of more on the hamster wheel of, just not being fed, your soul wasn't being felt, you were just doing what you needed to do, even though you were making great money, you weren't feeling fulfilled, is a very common, and it's a time when I think a lot of people become entrepreneurs because of that. And that burnout leads them to quit, leads them to then maybe try a totally different path, like going into entrepreneurship, because maybe they've just had something just ticking along that they've always been passionate about. Maybe it's a hobby, maybe it's a side hustle that they started.
Or maybe it's just like, I want to use my experience to coach others. There's so many paths that you can take in entrepreneurship, of course. And it's often that burnout moment, I think it's like the peak of the mountain they get to and they're like, okay, I've got to find a different way down. I can't keep going up this hill and being measurable.
So I get really excited about this type of conversation. What comes after? So what's come after for you? Tell us just your story and how you got into coaching and why that has, has that now fulfilled you? Has that made the difference you were looking for?
Jean-François
I think there's another link here to our theme, right? Resilience through vulnerability. And I want to tie it back to something you said about, you were hitting a wall because you were worried about you were worried about money, that if you weren't working, you weren't going to make any money. And that was obviously going to jeopardise the rest of your life. I think one of the big elements for me, especially this year, on January 1st, my word of the year was trust. It still is. It's still in my word of the year. And actually, I started a coaching relationship with my own coach in order to kind of fully explore and understand that.
And the point I want to make is trusting implies vulnerability, right? And it's not only trusting in yourself or trusting in others. I think those are definitely part of it, but it's also trusting in the fact that the universe is incalculable.
We are one thread in a massive, massive tapestry that we cannot comprehend. That to me was a big moment this year when I started releasing, because I would wake up in January and February this year really worried about, ‘Oh, my God, we're dipping into our savings a lot and we're not making enough money’. And like this was creating all this anxiety. And I obviously could recognise that because I'd gone through it in 2020, right? All these feelings kept coming back up. I think Vicki, you were alluding earlier about the ability to recognise things because you've gone through it, right? So I was recognising all of that. And that's why I started a coaching relationship with my own coach so that I could explore that further and fully.
And I suppose I realised through that I needed to be vulnerable and let go of the one quadrillion things that I cannot control. Literally, if you think about it, right? I think the ego, the self, makes us the centre of the play. We're always the lead. Everywhere we go. Walk into a grocery store, what do I want? What do I need? Oh these people are in my way. I need to go get the bananas. But if you really think about it, you've got dozens of people around you that are all the lead of their plays and you have no idea what their path is. When I think about that, I use the term thread in a tapestry. Look, I'm not a particularly religious person and I call it the universe. Some people call it God, but I know for a fact that I can't even possibly comprehend what is going on. So there's a huge amount of releasing that's been happening for me this year and trusting. And the trust also comes from the feeling that I get that what I am doing every day feels right. Right? And this is a scooping motion because it's inwards.
I'm trying to do, take action based on what feels correct rather than what I think is correct. Right? Beause thoughts kind of for me is like this. It comes from outside and you're worried about stuff and then you like to take action. I'm really trying to connect to this motion in my body, in my being. And since I've started doing that a lot more this year, my life has gotten so much better because there's an implicit element of trust in myself. Okay, so what's the worst case scenario if we finish our savings and we're still not making enough to pay a salary? Like I'm still employable. I'll figure it out. I'm an intelligent person. I'm educated. I have tons of experience. I have a partner, right, who can also go out and help bring money in, right? So, and also trust that things are gonna happen and work properly.
And so to answer your question, Laura, I've gone on this like tangent because I thought that the notion of vulnerability is quite important here with this notion of trust, I just started doing what I felt was the right thing. I figured out that for me, my purpose in life is to help others realise their purpose. I want to help others be the best version of themselves in their lives. And I was like, okay, cool, how can I do that? And that's when coaching came into my life. And I was like, okay, this feels right. Let's take a coaching course. And I took a coaching course and about like three weeks and I was like, oh my God, like this is such a fragmented industry and there's so much opportunity. Okay, well, what could I do? Somebody suggested, why don't you build a platform to connect coaches and clients together? This was a random conversation in January, 2021.
One week later, my now business partner reaches out to me out of the blue and goes like, I have an idea. I want to chat with you about, do you have some time? I got on a call with him. He rolled out basically exactly the idea I'd had, but he'd had it from a completely different angle, but it was the exact same concept. So I saw that and I was like, my God. Okay. So this feels right. And then this person's coming into my life. So I'm going to say yes. And then we just started kind of building WABYA out of that.
It took two years to get to the point where we're ready to start trading, but every step has felt right. And even now by many metrics, we're not really that successful, right? We're not like pulling in thousands of clients and we don't have millions in revenue, but there's not one morning that I wake up that I don't feel like I'm actually not fulfilling my being with the actions that I'm taking. And every time I have a coaching session either with a client or I connect one of our coaches with a client, I know that I am fulfilling my purpose. I suppose there's this implicit trust, right? I feel this is my purpose and I need to not question too much why this is my purpose. I just need to kind of go with it, at the risk of my thoughts getting in the way and going, oh my God, you're not making a lot of money. oh my God, you're still living in a London flat. my God, you don't have kids yet. Do you know all the other metrics that stress people out? So sorry, long-winded answer, but yeah, I think that's the full answer I can give you.
Vicki
It's a great answer and you covered a lot of things there, JF. As you were talking, a few things came to mind. And one example would be where a startup or a founder is still deciding what niche they want to serve. And their brain is going to say, I should go after this niche because it's a profitable niche. And their heart or their gut is saying, that doesn't interest me. And they might do it anyway.
Jean-François
Yeah, go with what feels right. What you want to do, even though it might not be apparent yet. Trust that there's a bigger plan, trust that you are part of a bigger tapestry, and just go with what really makes your heart sing. Because you will find fulfilment there. It's guaranteed.
Laura
Fulfilment trumps financial success. And I agree with that. I agree with that so wholeheartedly. I I think we can build multi-million dollar businesses and be absolutely miserable doing it. And then will there be success at the end? Well, it definitely depends on how you define success for you and everybody's gonna define it differently, of course. But I think the people we work with, people we speak with, the entrepreneurs that come on this podcast, their purpose seems to reign supreme with most of them. And the people who we see who are the happiest and most fulfilled certainly are living in their purpose. It makes such a difference to do that. Often people will wonder, and I think they search up a lot online, like, how do I find my purpose? Or the Japanese call it Ikigai.
I'm sure you're familiar with the term ikigai. So how does one, if they're in that space of, what is my purpose? I'm not sure. Maybe they're in burnout. Maybe they're just miserable with what they're doing and they know they need a different path, but they're just not sure what that is yet. How, how does one, if you were to coach somebody in this area, like how does one start to get deep within themselves to figure out that.
Jean-François
Yeah, I think it's different for everyone, right? Because I've spoken with some people who are like, oh my god, this is too big. I can't even contemplate what the purpose of my life is because it feels like where do I start, right? There are so many various ways to look at it. You've mentioned Ikigai, which is, I think, finding your vocation, your profession, what you love, and then there's something else, right? So there's all these frameworks.
But I suppose ultimately if I were in a coaching session with anyone and they were, I want to find my purpose or I want to find what fulfils me. It is about asking questions, right? Coaching is really about providing a space for clients to uncover and fulfil their potential and the uncovering part is really through the coach's curiosity. Tell me more about that.
And so questions like, ‘What do you sometimes do that makes you lose track of time?’ That's usually a good indicator when you're not counting the hours that you're spending on something. That's something that really truly moves you, right?
And then that could be another question, like ‘What truly moves you?’ ‘What could you do every day without getting bored of it?’ Is it just another way to structure that question and ask that question? What gets you out of bed in the morning? Right?
The thing is the roadmap to yourself, you're the only one who has the roadmap to yourself because you are unique. There is literally no one else in the world like you. And so looking for a roadmap outside of yourself can be useful, but you're going to be using other people's metrics, other people's ideas, which again, self -help books abound, but it's never quite right because you are unique. And so it's about uncovering that roadmap for yourself. And that's what coaching can help you do. The coach doesn't tell you where to go. The coach just helps you figure out what that roadmap looks like for you. And it's different for everyone, literally different for everyone. I've had dozens and dozens of clients, I've had hundreds of hours of coaching under my belt and not one person has been the same. It's really beautiful and it's really fascinating. So I suppose you have to interrogate yourself if you're seeking your purpose, you have to interrogate yourself as to what you truly love. And that's also a notion of being able to tune in to what love feels like for you. Because a lot of people live outside of their bodies, right? Or can't really connect to emotions. Sometimes I ask clients like, okay, so what are you feeling right now? Well, I think this is going to work because of X, Y, Z. Cool, but I didn't ask what you thought, I asked how you felt. And sometimes it takes a while to get to the bottom of this because people don't know how to express their feelings.
They're really critical in pointing the way towards good or bad for you.
Vicki
Once I know what I want, how do I move fear aside? Change my beliefs about what I can do and go for it.
Jean-François
Well, let me just take the opportunity to throw the question back in a way, right? Vicki, how do you know when you're feeling fearful? Like what are the signs for you?
Vicki
My body reacts.
Jean-François
Okay, give me a bit more on that, like what's the reaction?
Vicki
Hot, completely hot. Usually starts in the gut, travels through the body. Legs start to feel almost jittery, like if they want to run somewhere. And I usually reach for some water.
Jean-François
Okay, okay. So you know that those are the signals that you're afraid of something, right?
Vicki
I've recently, yeah, I've been able to put fear as the label on it, but normally it's just a feeling that one has in his body and you only know that it's fear because you've been coached on, I've been coached on knowing that fear, right? Which may arise when I feel overwhelmed, feel like it's something that's too hard, something that makes me, yeah, some people might call it anxiety. Yeah.
Jean-François
Yeah. Okay, so now that you have been able to recognise this feeling of fear in your body and you're able to put a label on it, what is literally the next step when you do feel this? What happens? Do you do anything? Do you just notice it? Or like what's the immediate next step?
Vicki
Yeah, so now that I know what it is, I can name it. And I say, interesting. What am I scared of?
Jean-François
Yeah. I love that. That's perfect. Right. What is this? Right. What is this about? And you know, what's really cool is that I went through the exact same process with my own coach earlier in the year. Right. The process was recognise, name and then inquire. What is this about? I was on another podcast and I asked very similar questions to the host.
And she was like, what is this fear protecting me from? And I was like, that's a great question. What is that fear trying to protect you from? Okay, so then let's move one step again forward, Vicki. What's the usual answer? Is there a usual answer? When you ask yourself the question, what is this fear about?
Vicki
Typically, I will be able to say, I see, that's overwhelmed. Okay, if it's overwhelmed, what do I need to let go of? What am I trying to do that feels too big, too much, too fast, too soon, that kind of thing. So I just dig in a little deeper to like, I guess it's similar to what is it protecting me from, but it's more about what do I need to know about what's in front of me that I can chunk down so that it becomes manageable and I feel good about doing it.
Jean-François
Yeah, okay cool. What happens to your symptoms when you started doing that?
Vicki
Yeah, like as soon as the inquiry happens, the symptoms dissipate because they're being seen.
Jean-François
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You've answered the question for everyone, right? The symptoms dissipate. You've put it, you've identified it. You've put a name on it. You've actually asked what is happening? Why is this happening? What is this about? And then the symptoms dissipate. Does that mean that you will never be afraid again?
And does that mean that you, do you ever feel like you have actually suppressed the entire concept of fear from your life?
Vicki
I wouldn't call it suppressed. I'd call it moved, moved. So it maybe doesn't show up as vehemently or as violently the next time because it's more familiar, right? Once things become more familiar, then they eventually don't show up, I imagine.
Jean-François
Yeah, well, yeah, maybe one day fear will never show up for you, which would be fantastic. I personally believe that I don't see that day coming. But my point is, I love the fact that you said moved, because the way that I see this relationship.
It's not about powering through it or pushing through it or breaking beyond fear. It's about moving it to the side and walking next to it. It's about not looking at it as an enemy, but as something that is trying to protect you and that's necessary in your evolution. Yeah, to like help you move forward. It's actually a friend and with friends we walk side by side, right? And it's just a relationship to develop.
You develop a relationship with this thing that's inside of you that feels like a big monster until you realise that this monster is actually your friend trying to protect you. And once that's done, then you can hold hands with it and go like, okay, cool. I know when you're popping up, now I recognise you. And the more you do it, like anything with practice, you get better at it. And then suddenly it's kind of like, okay, here's an indicator. What's happening at the moment right now? Why is this happening? What are you trying to protect me from?
Okay, I get it. Okay, now do I really need to be afraid of this? Do I really need to take action based on this fear as in like reaction? Those are the steps.
Vicki
Okay Joseph Campbell, I'm going to turn Joseph Campbell in his grave. This is an important conversation. The hero's journey is quite often depicted as needing to slay the dragon. You've just described the monster or dragon as our friend.
Jean-François
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Vicki
So what does this mean for the hero's journey?
Jean-François
And well, this is about love, right? This is about loving yourself, loving every part of you, including the parts that feel yucky. And once you do that, then you're able to be vulnerable and open up and you're able to love others better because you understand they're fundamentally going through the same thing. And then you become more resilient. Boom.
Full circle.
Vicki
Resilience is love. End of story.
Jean-François
Resilience is love. There we go. Actually, that's brilliant. That's such a pithy way of putting it because it's true. Resilience is like the opposite of shutting down and putting up walls. It's about opening up and caring for yourself and caring for others.
Laura
Exactly. I mean, that is the journey. How do we move forward, move through, work alongside, hold hands with fear, understand what its purpose is? I know that I can sometimes simmer in it, right? Where the brain is in overdrive, thinking about a problem or certain situation. And I know that for me, the only way through is to do something. And it could be journaling, it could be talking with a trusted friend or advisor, a coach, it just is taking one small step to get out of this spinning mindset, to do something proactive that always steps me through. And I love so much how you framed it as love because doing that to me, I can look at it as that's an act of self-love. I love myself enough that I'm not going to sit here and just spin in this stew of stress and anxiety, but rather take an action, find a friend, help myself with some love, some grace.
Because often we can blame ourselves, right? We can blame ourselves when we're in a situation that is overwhelming or stressful or be it financial stress or relationship stress or business stress, whatever it is. There's maybe something you don't want to do like fire an employee or let go of something. And often we'll just spin and spin and spin. But if we give ourselves the grace, understand that this is a common journey that we all go through. So get help, get people around us, find some self love, take some action to move through, the difference, the impact that can make. It's never going to go away. I totally agree with you that fear exists for a reason. That feeling in your stomach, that gut should be listened to because there's a reason for it. And it's either something that you need to heal and get, you know, maybe it's some past trauma that sort of resurfaces because of a trigger, that maybe you need to heal that part of yourself. That could be a big part of it. Or it could just be an external thing where you're like, whoa, this could be majorly damaging to my life if I don't really pay attention to it.
So there's always value in fear. And I love your point of coming through with vulnerability because we can get through by having these conversations, by finding people and listening to podcasts like this that hopefully just help you to be a little introspective and look inside and say, okay, what is it? Let's figure it out. Let's work through it. Let's find others that have had a similar journey and take some inspiration from it. That's what I really do hope that the value of conversations like this has for people.
And, you know, the great work that coaches do, I think is underestimated. People often think, you know, that's something I don't want to spend my money on, maybe limited resources on, because it's just, they're just going to tell me what I already know. But it's rather the reframe into, right? You guys are both laughing at me because I'm not the coach, you guys are the coaches, but I get the fact that.
Vicki
It's true. It's true, we're gonna tell you what you already know. You just weren't able to access it until you spoke to somebody who could ask you the right questions, right?
Jean-François
Exactly, yeah.
Laura
That's so important. It's so important. Because often we don't want it.
Jean-François
It's an investment, right? It's not a cost. It's an investment in yourself. And it's incredible the amount of people that don't feel that they're worthwhile enough to invest in their own selves. And we're looking to change that, right? Our approach is vehemently business to consumer, B2C, right? It's really about, we want to make this accessible and affordable to as many people as we can.
You know, it's a very, very wide, but very shallow profit pool. We understand that. But everything that we're creating on our socials is really about continuing to showcase and educate in the best way that we can in our words and using our being in a way. Like I don't even want to use the word brand because when you look at our website, our Instagram, our LinkedIn, it's not about pulling the wool over people's eyes.
We are so transparently ourselves in the content that we put out there. We have so much content too. We understand the power of images and videos. I spent 14 years in marketing and communication, so that was my bread and butter. It's again, one of those beautiful ironies is all the tools that I got from my corporate career I'm now using on this entrepreneurial journey.
So yeah, it's been such a beautiful journey. And I just want to say thank you to you both for, in many ways, providing the space for people to realise what's right for them. So in your own ways, you're helping people self-realise, know, discover and fulfil their potential. And that's really fantastic.
Vicki (49:30)
Thank you, JF. That's important to us. That's really what drives us to do this podcast and has done for the last two years. Every single week talking to different people and helping business founders to really, I guess, be able to see a little bit further past themselves where they're at and be able to understand that there is always a path towards where they want to be. And it sounds like a similar parallel mission to yours - although we're not looking to reach a billion people by 2033. Well that would be nice, we'll take it, but yeah that's not our mission.
Jean-François (50:03)
That's a big, yeah, but you might do, but you know what's interesting is our mission statement literally is ‘to bring self-realisation through coaching to one billion people by 2033’, but our business isn't coaching. Coaching is the vehicle by which we help people self-realise. So really our mission statement is to ‘bring self-realisation to one billion people by 2033’. And by the way, you know, if we want to stick to business-like metrics, you know, we've got a ways to go. But actually, I would say that having this conversation and being in this space with you, we are reaching hundreds, thousands of people. And also the people that, you know, benefit from our coaching, there's a halo effect when you get to feel more fulfilled, then you have a positive impact on those around you. So this billion for us is not necessarily directly related to the actual amount of clients that we have, but it's about spreading the seeds of fulfilment everywhere we go and every interaction we have. Using the power of the collectives, the we, the three of us working together, what we're creating is greater than the sum of our parts.
Laura
That summed it all up so beautifully. And we are absolutely right alongside you in that belief and that purpose. And you do, you impact everybody through you help one person, they help five other people because they're talking to their circle, which could be their family, their friends circle, their business, their employees, their clients. The impact is like the ripple in the pond, right? You drop one pebble and it affects so many.
And it’s exactly what we want this podcast and hope this podcast always is, is that beginning ripple where we can inspire other entrepreneurs to get out there, to start that business, to grow that business, to handle the obstacles that are going to come. There's just going to be things that are going to happen, some seen, some unseen. And we want to make sure that everybody has the mindset, has the power to keep going, using tools like vulnerability and coaching and trust and honesty and authenticity to grow. I love what you're talking about, the content and sharing that. And absolutely, we always recommend people as well when they're growing and launching a business to focus on authenticity, to share their stories, to share themselves, their faces, their videos, to talk, to let people know who they really are because at end of the day, people buy from people because people trust people.
But if you're living in your purpose and your spirit is to help others, I can almost guarantee success is coming. You've got to keep going. Keep going through it. Slay your dragons. Find your purpose and go out and do great things in the world.
Creating small businesses turning into big brands. That's our motto at Two for One. And we truly believe that every small business can be a big brand by using these tools. So JF, thank you so incredibly much for this amazing conversation. The depth was gorgeous to swim in and we just really, really appreciate your time. Thank you.
Jean-François
No, thanks very much for having me both and yeah, I'm here to help out with anything you want at any time.
Laura
Appreciate that.
