Vicki
Todd, thank you for joining us. It's absolutely fabulous for you to be here in the studio with us at Resilient Entrepreneurs podcast. We're excited to be talking with you today and we would love to just jump right into the conversation with a question about your very first entrepreneurial adventure. I understand that it may have had something to do with martial arts. Tell us how that came about.
TODD HOLZMAN
My mentors tell me not to talk about this, but I will do it nevertheless. So, yeah, so thank you. So first of all, thank you for having me, Vicki and Laura. I enjoyed this duet or this trio, maybe we can call it. Yeah, so let's see.
I had the good fortune of doing my undergraduate at Cornell. And while I was there, I fell in love with two things, organisational behavior and taekwondo.
And I remember, as one does, you go around and interview with different companies. At the time, it was Anderson, not Accenture Consulting, all the change management practices, because I was trained into my Bachelor's of Science in what essentially was organisational behavior.
All the jobs seemed terribly boring and one of my Taekwondo teachers, I was competing nationally at the time, says, “Do you want to start a school with us in New York City?” And I remember being in the limo coming back from, because they sent a limo for me from Accenture, coming back from the interview, wearing this horrible Brooks Brothers gray plaid and just feeling like it's just not me, you know? And he says, do you want to start the school like, yes. And so that's what I did much to my parents to grit, you know, like, who does that? But it was, I still think it was the right choice. Because I got to build something that I was passionate about. And then in doing that apply all these things I was learning about organisational behaviour and organisational design and leadership and creating the culture there. So it became a place I experimented with. And the school grew tremendously, I think we had 150 students within a space of a little over a year. We only lost one person that time, which apparently Laura is a Shotokan aficionado in her past, those of you who don't know that, if you're going to ask me, you guys are fair game too and turnover is a big thing with martial arts schools. I mean, they turn over 30% students easily every single year. I remember we lost one. Her name was Eve. I still remember her name because it broke my heart. And it was just a wonderful experience. And then when I decided to leave the school and just go on to do my master's, I decided to do it in Organisational Psychology because that was what I was finding most meaningful about creating this school. And I did it 20 blocks away at Columbia University so I could still have a foot in the school. So that was my first experience of starting a business, running a business from start to finish. I mean, finding the location, negotiating with the Park Avenue attorneys. Yeah, I was 21 at the time. Building the thing, teaching the classes, training the staff, doing the sales, cleaning the school, you know all of that. It was a very, very intense, but very also stressful, enjoyable, meaningful experience.
Laura
I love it so much because you really told the story about how almost every entrepreneur, especially the solo entrepreneurs start out. You have to do everything. You wear every hat. You just said you were the janitor and the CEO, the HR person and the finance. Like you're doing it all. And that's such a typical. Exactly. And you cared so much about the people.
TODD HOLZMAN
Yeah, the books, everything, you know.
Laura
I find that part really interesting that was the thing that was most important to you. And then you said you went on to study more in the psychology part. Tell me a bit about that because there's something there that's really interesting, that you cared so much about the people. And I think there's a good lesson in there for other entrepreneurs.
TODD HOLZMAN
What's interesting about that? Is that not normal for entrepreneurs?
Laura
I don't think it is. I think often people worry more about other parts, right? They get stuck in the day-to-day, the finances, exactly. Yeah. But how important it was for you to create something that people wanted to be and wanted to stay in. Because you're right, turnover is normal and it's often like 30%, but you had it at what? Probably 1%, maybe less than 1%. That's impressive.
TODD HOLZMAN
The product, customers, running the operations.
A little bit less probably, yeah. Well, I think it, first of all, I think it goes back to some of my formative experiences as a kid and also during university. So my mom was a teacher. My father was in the record business, but he just passed away this summer, but he was a coach of all the little league teams. So I had this experience of just being surrounded by coaches and teachers. And my uncle's partner was a leading psychiatrist in New York City. And he was very, very smart. He's from Israel. I spent a bunch of time with him and I loved him, my father asked me once, as I was growing up, “What do want to be when you grow up?”
And at some point, I'm 12 or 13, and he asked me the same question and I said, I want to be a psychiatrist or a psychologist. He says, why do you want to do that? You have enough of your own problems. I'm like, thanks. So at least, my father was also an entrepreneur. So it's like this harmony between entrepreneurship and psychology. And then when I was in college, I saw my friends pursuing careers that they didn't really want to do and the misery of it. And there were different things happening around me. One professor who was, who had combined the idea of developing yourself as a human being with entrepreneurship. His name was Michael Hudson at the Business School at Cornell and all of that together, I was like, you know, I got to do something that I actually want to do and I feel passionate about. And then I had a couple of realisations where I was like, you know what, I seem to be pretty good at having deep conversations with people and inspiring them. I remember going down on spring break to like, I wasn't a party guy, but I was gonna party on this spring break and it was during the senior year. And there was this guy in the plane and he started talking to me about his whole journey as an alcoholic and now he's AA. And I started just, I don't know, talking to him about his life. And then we go to baggage and he pulls out a poker chip, which is the irony of all ironies is what he got for being six months in AA. And he gave it to me and I held it in my wallet for, I don't know, many years until it just broke and crumbled to pieces. So I knew I wanted to do something around inspiring people to live better lives. So I was lucky, I think, in college to have a real sense of what I wanted to do with my life. A strong feeling for what that would be. Exactly what that would be the ultimate, that's the goal. What path that would take, I didn't know. And so I think I came into, and that's why also I was interested in Taekwondo, because I didn't see it as just about kicking and punching, for me, it wasn't so much about self-defense as it was a spiritual journey and a journey of the development of our characters and of our persons. So all that stuff came together. So in some ways, I think, Laura, the nature of it, what we were doing with people, kids and adults, it was very much about human beings. And so, thank God I had some training in Organisational Behaviour and Psychology so I could apply that to that work.
Vicki
Yeah, thank you, Todd. And I think a lot of what you've just shared with us, it has carried through and you'll tell us whether it has or not, carried through to what you do now and really helping senior leaders to be incredible leaders, to really understand leadership and to what's the difference that makes a difference in leadership.
TODD HOLZMAN
I think the first thing is believing that you're capable of exercising leadership regardless of whether you're a senior leader or not. And separating the idea of leadership as an activity from the role of Leader. So I spend a lot of time in some of these bigger companies, right? And one of the things I, my colleagues and I, set up a 13 person global faculty, over half of whom are not in the United States, they're in the UK and Europe. We think about leadership as the activity of mobilising people to confront and deal with reality, and then to take action that makes things better.
Vicki
I love that. Can you say that again?
TODD HOLZMAN
So it's actually, if I were to quote my friend from Brisbane, Dean Williams, who wrote an amazing book called Leadership in a Fractured World, with his buddy, forward by his buddy, the Dalai Lama, I used to teach with him at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. He lives in Singapore now. He's an amazing man, human being, leadership expert, advisor to world leaders and leaders in companies alike. He used to call leadership as mobilising people to confront and deal with problematic realities in order to improve the human condition.
The idea is, all of us at work, outside of work, we all see, I'm to think if it's true to my own experience, there are maybe not every day, but every week, problems and opportunities that maybe are bothering us for whatever reason in our family, in our relationships, in the communities where we live, in the schools where our kids study and at work. Well, you don't have to be a leader, an elected official, or somebody who's been hired as upper level management to be able to do something about those things. I think these problems and opportunities to make life better, are everyone's right and responsibility. And that leadership can and should be exercised within and beyond one's authority.
And so this is a roundabout way of answering your question, Vicki. I think one of the things that makes a difference is when people think of leadership that way. Because otherwise, most of our notions are very disempowering. It's somebody else's responsibility, or there's nothing I can do.
TODD HOLZMAN
Go ahead.
Vicki
No, keep coming. This is my favorite subject. I love it. Personal responsibility, being in the driver's seat of your life, seeing a problem and filling the gap. This is what entrepreneurs thrive on. Entrepreneurs create businesses to solve problems, to close gaps. And you're exactly talking about that. Taking responsibility to do that. Not just in business, but in life. And I love this conversation.
TODD HOLZMAN
Well, and probably, I don't know how the age range of some of the entrepreneurs who listen to your podcasts and that you're trying to help. So I want to say two things on that. So there are people who've probably had real jobs for years and years. And then they decide to I don't know, put their own flag in the ground and say, I'm going to do this. I mean, that is, that is an act of taking ownership of one's life. And then, you know, the young person like me who did it, you know, in some ways, looking back, it's very strange that I did it, you know, that I decided to not get a job, so to speak. Maybe I was just too much of a misfit. So I had no choice. But I will say one of the things that I think. I've talked, some entrepreneurs that I know, one of the things they get frustrated with is like they feel so much ownership for that business and that organisation because it is them. And so aligned with oftentimes something they're passionate about. And certainly it's about making money, but it isn't only about making money. And maybe it doesn't even start with making money for a lot of people.
So whatever, they're moved for some reason. But one of the things that I think I often frustrated with is why are the other people in my organisation, why don't they feel the same bloody ownership?
TODD HOLZMAN
Because I see something and it bothers the heck out of me. And my people will see the same thing and they seem pretty cool with it. I don't know to what extent that you feel that's true for.
Laura
No, I think you've made so much sense. And as a parent, I can relate it just to being a parent because you'll see the underpants on the floor and go, why haven't my children picked that up? That's disgusting. What if somebody comes over, right? exactly, exactly. And what is that? Is it a leader's job to help the whole organisation feel like they have some ownership? How does one do that? Because I think that can start even if it's just you an d a virtual assistant, which is how a lot of businesses start, right? Just you and somebody helping you and then you build a team and then eventually you have a board and all these good things. But the leadership has to start from day one. So how does one help build a team as a leader and build themselves in that leadership role, I think is actually the more important part.
TODD HOLZMAN
Conversations and consequences. And I mean, positive consequences. On conversation, you want people to take ownership for this thing that you're creating, right? Or this thing that you've created. Well, it better be linked to some higher purpose, some kind of important thing that you're trying to do in the world. Because why would I want to take ownership over something that isn't important? But maybe I don't see the linkage so much because it's my passion. I started the business. It's so obvious to me but now I have to enroll other people in it. So I think you're trying to, maybe no one's ever going to feel as strongly as you. You may find some people who do and feel even more obsessive than you are, which is great. But most people, they're not going to feel the same passion. So I think you need to call them to this journey, to go on this journey with you. And there needs to be, it needs to be on behalf of something that is meaningful to people, I think. And that's where the conversation comes in. Explaining why you did this, the difference you hope to make in the world, why you think this is darn important, how important their role is in all of that. That, so they can connect themselves to something greater. I think that's the conversational piece.
And probably in the conversational piece, it's not just you blah, blah, blah. It's like explaining it, but gotta hear, what do they think about that?
What do they think about the importance of what we're trying to do together? How do they see them? I've explained how I see you fitting into it. How do you see yourself fitting into it? Because this is how they start to co-own this thing with you, I think. That's one.
But then also, consequences. My father used to say, money talks, bullshit walks. That's an old 1950s, 1960s kind of saying, I guess.
So I think it's important that, you know, if people are doing things which serve the mission of your organisation, then they should get paid for it. There should be some upside to them. Whatever is a meaningful upside to them. You know, so I want doing the right thing to be rewarding for people. So that's what I meant by consequences.
Vicki
Yeah, it sounds like a really strong formula for success, conversations and consequences. And when you shape it the way you have it, it just makes sense on so many levels for helping to get teams rallied up around a cause. And I think cause is a very important part of what you've just described. Hmm. Yeah, there you go. Conversation, Consequences and Cause.
TODD HOLZMAN
Cause that's a good C. Yeah, because you have to have the conversation that calls them to the cause and there have to be positive consequences for contributing to it. We should start a podcast. wait, you already have one.
Vicki
Sitting where I sit, I'm also a coach and I can't help but want to put in a two cents here where a leader who has a strong vision and a strong calling, another C for you Todd, they may be blind to the nature that everybody has their own cause and their own calling, and they may want to be part of yours, but it doesn't mean they're going to eat, sleep and breathe it.
They may not need to be as passionate about it as you are as the leader, as the entrepreneur, but know that they're on board for their own reasons, that they have their own passion driving them towards the common cause. I think we can't expect that everybody's going to be the same kind of chocolates in the box. We've got to understand that we're all different. We're all called to passion for our own reasons and our own past experiences. What are your thoughts?
TODD HOLZMAN
You know, I totally agree. And the reason I'm pulling out my text right now is, let see if I can just find it, because I texted somebody something the other day that I think has some bearing on the conversation. So as an entrepreneur, you're trying to build something. You've got people who are part of that with you, who maybe technically work for you, right? Now, if you're going to do anything significant in the world, it's going to be bloody hard work. Which is why I think, Vicki, and you're going to be asking a lot of people, and which is, which I think makes your point, Vicki, even more important. Because as one does, I shared this Nietzsche quote with the Head of Strategy of a global 2000 company yesterday, which is, “He who has a why to live can bear almost any how”. And so I wrote, consider what is people's why that would justify the quantity and quantity of work you need and want them to do? And so I think the same thing is true. It's like, okay, here's my why, but what's yours? And I think that's an important question Vicki, so people can personally connect them to this thing we're trying to do together. And this is, I think, a mistake that entrepreneurs can make. It becomes too much of one-way inspiration. As opposed to helping people find their reason for inspiration. And that exists inside of them, which I think is implicit in what you've said, Vicki.
Laura
It's so interesting because Vicki and I, our partnership and we are celebrating five years in business together this month, which is very exciting. And, you know, so much of the why has shaped our business and we both have our own whys. We have different things that we work for that we are passionate about. I'm passionate about teaching and the education space for entrepreneurs. Vicki's passionate about the coaching and that which complements each other so well. And we're able to build the Resilient Entrepreneurs out of that. So it is amazing when you can connect with the right people to build with. It's not easy. I mean, it took me 40 years to find Vicki. It didn't happen overnight. But in business to find the right people to surround yourself with is so key.
TODD HOLZMAN
That's special, by the way. That's like a big deal. Yeah. And you feel it here, you know? It’s very rare.
Laura
Thank you. I'm so glad to hear that. What's your take on, can anybody be a leader or is this something that people are born with?
TODD HOLZMAN
Well, you know what I'm going to say. Because if people were just born with it, I'd have no business. You know what I mean? But it's still a relevant question because people are still asking this question. And I thought it was settled a long time ago in the literature. But I remember when I was teaching at the Kennedy School, I met with a Deputy Finance Minister for China because his friend was my student who was like a lieutenant in the whole Tiananmen Square student movement. And boy, those guys had stories to tell. And I remember we're sitting at dinner in Cambridge and he just asked me, are leaders born or made? And it was such an interesting question. And imagine that country really as just an everyday person feeling probably… and now I think I understand the question. I didn't understand why he asked it or where it was coming from. But imagine if you grew up in that country. Very little ability to shape your own destiny whatsoever. Everything feels destined or fated or bigger than you probably. So, first of all, again, it comes back to what's leadership, right? So with the ability to, if you equate it with the ability to amass power, I suspect people are naturally better at that than others. And I forget the guy's name, he wrote the X number of rules of power. Even apparently some of those things are learnable too. What I'm interested in is people exercising leadership, stepping up to mobilise and collaborate with other people to confront and deal with problematic realities or opportunities to make things better and then helping all that actually occur. And that requires influence.
And I think some people probably are, I think people are born with some natural gifts around that. For example, some people are just more naturally charismatic. We don't know why, but you just feel drawn to listen to them. I think that's something you're born with, but the, but the ability, but the raw ability I do think is learnable, for sure. And by I think nearly anyone. So for example, a lot of what I'm talking about requires people to kind of speak up, right? So you'd imagine introverts would be the worst at this, right? The people are measured as more extroverts, they're gonna be better at it. Not necessarily. You know, yeah, why do you agree?
Laura
I agree with you. Yeah.
Because I myself am an introvert and no matter what I've ever joined, I've ended up running it. Not intentionally, but they're just, yeah, you're going to be President. Okay, President of my sorority, I was President of this, President of.. if I join a board, end up running it. I'm like, I don't ask for it. I, you know, claim to be an introvert. Sometimes I'm little on the balance point between the two. But I've also known a lot of introverts and actually the best boss I ever had was absolutely you would class him as an introvert. But he was so incredibly good at the communication and getting everybody on that same why and to follow the cause and we were so on board with whatever he said. We have to do this? Okay, we're all in this boat together. And that was the best experience I had in my career was working with him. And I found, yeah, have you Vicky, any?
Vicki
Yeah. I'd love to echo that. Yeah, I'd love to echo that. You know, my experience as an executive leader, feedback tells me that I'm a kick-ass manager and I'm an introvert. And the reason I believe that I'm an effective manager is because my role, in my opinion, was always to remove the obstacles for my team so that they can do the best job they want to do and to build relationships and connections and create opportunities for them to shine. That was my mission as a manager. So whether I'm an introvert or extrovert doesn't come into it because I'm not in the way of it.
TODD HOLZMAN
Yeah, I think I agree with both of those things. I think leadership is a thinking person's game. Because the first question you have, so it's not about blah, blah, blah. I mean, your ability to articulate yourself well is important. And just having the personality of an extrovert doesn't necessarily make you better at that. That's just, you tend to be more outward than inward. It doesn't make you more of a capable communicator necessarily, although perhaps you talk a lot, practice makes perfect, and somehow you pull ahead of others.
But the first question is, and it's a kind of introverted question, what are the real problems or opportunities that I think we need to address or I need to address or these other people need to address? That's where the act of leadership starts with thinking of it's a thinking skill. And then you have to be very thoughtful and okay, well, how do I frame this so that people want to kind of lean into this issue, this opportunity versus push me away. You know, and you can imagine being an expert could backfire on you. So by the way, I'm not saying being an expert is a bad thing either. just saying it's not always what people would think.
Vicki
Introversion encourages introspection and that's where good leadership starts.
TODD HOLZMAN (30:09)
And thoughtful though, mm-hmm, that's right. That's right. Maybe, you know, the L in leadership stands for listening. That's just too corny to say out loud, and I just said it out loud. That's horrible. Can we edit this part of the... But also, we've also studied this. But we've also studied this, yeah. But we've also studied this too. So the logic that the three of us are talking about makes sense. Is leadership something that's developable, or are you born with it? Fine. I think we've made a good case for it being developable.
But also, we've got the data on it. We've looked at tens of thousands of, we've developed tens of thousands of leaders globally, at all levels, from all walks of life, and every one of them is capable of doing a lot better. And we've seen improvement. So there's also that. And I'm sure you've seen that in your coaching practices.
Vicki
Yeah, and I think lifelong learners are lifelong leaders, and a good leader will always see room for their own improvement. But we're not here to talk to you about our opinion of leadership because you're the expert in this field and you're writing a book. I'd love to know more about the essence of what's in that and, and why, why it's important for you to share that message to the world.
TODD HOLZMAN
Very good.
So I don't know what to call it yet. I might want to call it Unradical Candor. Maybe just to be divisive. But there's a lot of… so it's a multi-part answer.
There are a lot of books on conversations. But there isn't one definitive guide, one place where you can go that can provide you guidance around how to effectively handle the conversations in your life in and outside of work that really matter to you. And there are, I mean, in Radical Candor, in Courageous Conversations, in Crucial Conversations, Difficult Conversations, all these books, there are some very solid ideas, which I think are worth people knowing about, and I want to put a spotlight on those things. There are also a lot of bad ideas that, if properly implemented, will make things worse. And there are also huge gaps in our understanding of what it takes to have an effective conve rsation about something that really matters. Because the moment it matters, it means it's probably going to be threatening or embarrassing to somebody. Or it's going to be quite complex, which makes us all feel out of our snorkel depth. And we tend not to respond well as human beings when we're below snorkel depth, I guess is the way to say that. I'm looking at the Australian here for water guidance.
Am I saying it right? But you're in Bermuda, so you're both kind of island people. I'm in Manhattan, so if I'm in the water, there's a problem.
So there's that. I want to create a definitive guide that will provide people with actual knowledge about how to have important conversations much better than they would have been able to. They could read it, and they can apply it and use it immediately. But the question even then is, well, why the heck to bother doing any of that? I guess it's because I have, conversations make up such a huge part of our lives and a lot of times people simply avoid having the conversation they need to have. And when they choose not to avoid it, they often don't go well. And because of those two phenomena, their lives are much more miserable than they have to be. Right? So I have, my team and I have looked at probably nearly 50,000 conversations that did not produce the results that people wanted. So it's a pretty big data sample. And most of it's in the workplace. 95% of it's in the workplace. And they're always bringing to us conversations that didn't produce the results that they wanted.
And when you read, and we have a foolproof way that's based upon some research that was done at Harvard, a tool that was created there, so it's not my creation, that gives us access to how people really behave during these conversations, not how they think or say they behave. It's like the next best thing to like, mic-ing up their lapel and hearing what they're saying. So it's very cool. And when you look at the conversation, there are clear patterns in the data of gaps in the way people are communicating with each other and the people who like our clients who shared these case studies with us. And there are traps that they're falling into. And you're like, God, if you had if you had not done this and done this instead, it's not a guarantee the conversations would have gone better, but it certainly increases the probabilities. Like, for example, a big trap that people across the globe fall into seemingly regardless of culture, company, country, any of it, background, is jumping to action. So I'm offering solutions to you to a problem we've neither discussed nor agreed upon. It's classic. And then when you have a person jump to action and the person doesn't respond, they don't go, well, it's because I skipped over agreeing on the problem. They go they're just not open to creative and new ideas. So the person, when you look at the conversation, most people have like a big blind spot around their contribution to the conversation not going well. And then when you look at the consequences of that, they're bad. They're bad for business. They're bad for people. You know, the business problem doesn't get solved, or it's really slow to solve or we're having to live with too much risk inside of our company because I couldn't get the person to take this issue seriously. And then now I've got to take more work on my shoulders. It’s not like I have a lot of free time, it's really their job, but now I'm doing a portion of their job. And now the relationship isn't so good because I hate them for being so close-minded when I should be more condemning perhaps of myself and my own methods. Then I think it's less likely that I can work with them in the future.
So it's just like, and it's the thing just cascades.
And when you see tens of thousands of those instances, you're like, I need to solve this. And when you look at what's out there, it's like, it's not good enough to solve it. And so I've been working now for, I don't know, almost 30 years trying to figure out. okay, we know what, have pretty clear idea of all the traps and gaps that people have in their communication, their conversations. We codified that and there's a seeming universality around it.
We've also figured out what good looks like. And there are generalisable principles and steps to follow that seemingly work across any conversation about anything with anyone. And so now that I feel confident in being able to assert that, which I didn't for a while, and there's been a lot of bloody trial and error, a lot of things that I thought worked, not, you know, so there go all of my dreams, you know, and all of my fanciful notions. And it's like, okay, now we're ready to give something to people that can help them. And the literature shows this as well, that when people, you talk about authenticity in our pre-call Vicki, when people can't find a way to express themselves authentically, which is what's almost always happening in all of these tens of thousands of conversations that I saw that we've researched we've read then analysed the psychological research. It demonstrates a severe negative impact on people's sense of well-being, on their sense of well-being in every measure, psychological measure of well-being. So your sense of your ability to impact the world, your sense of being a genuine person, all your mood, your self-esteem, your sense of autonomy are all adversely impacted by your inability to be authentic. I want to turn authenticity into not just something that requires courage, but it's a learned competence.
If we could teach people how to be their real selves, so they could be who they are in ways that people will receive versus reject, then we've done something very powerful and useful for people. So that is some of the stuff that's motivating the book.
Laura
I love it. Well, you have to tell us what is one of those principles?
TODD HOLZMAN
I mean, you know, some of these things. I remember when I was younger, I think it's still true, my friends used to call me Master of the Obvious. And I think sometimes when you have an insight, it ends up seeming kind of intuitively obvious. But one of the things is, this is embedded in our REAL framework, R-E-A-L, is, get agreement on the problem, discuss the problem and get agreement on the problem before you talk about solutions. It seems obvious that we should do that - it's common sense, but not conventionally practiced by any stretch of the imagination. And even that one realisation, it's like, I better talk about and get agreement on the problem before we even whiff a solution, is so important. So like if you're an entrepreneur, you've got somebody in your team, for example, if you're going to recommend that, let's say you see some performance gap or opportunity, and you've got ideas about what you want them to do differently, they're not going to do any of that unless they agree they have a performance gap or opportunity. And they're motivated to do something about it. And how could they possibly agree to it if you can't talk about it? Right? So you better talk about it and get agreement to it.
That's one big principle. The other one is, be as open to having your mind changed as you are, to be as committed to having your mind changed as you are to changing other people's minds.
Vicki
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Because my understanding of good communications has always been that if you communicate something to somebody or you think you have and it didn't land with them the way you intended and the message you're trying to impart doesn't transfer to them, then you haven't communicated. And I would go so far as to saying you haven't said anything. Because what is the point of communicating a message if the message doesn't land the way you intended? And we have to understand that everybody has their own perception, their own map of the world. And so it will land with them differently to how you intend. And your job as the communicator is to ensure that they have a clear understanding of what you're trying to communicate. And I think this all comes together with what you are saying. It's about being open to doing it differently, to being wrong, to an opportunity to learn a new way and what you've just described for us Todd is a formula for as blase and as beige as this sounds please don't ever consider using this as a title for a book but the essence of what you've just talked about is a formula for effective conversation or suffer the consequences!
TODD HOLZMAN
Follow the formula or fear the consequences. Yeah, that's very cool. Because even in the performance conversations, I was just kind of sort of describing. The problem, the reason these conversations are so hard is because managers see the conversation as, I have to convince them of this thing. Which means a priority, I'm right, they don't see it, and my job is to get them to see what they can't.
Not that there isn't any of that in these conversations, but if you approach it as, we're going to have a conversation. I have what I think is true. I'm going to share it with you. Maybe, hopefully I'm wrong. The way we need to approach conversations is not something to win.
But as collaborative searches for the truth together in order to make things better, that's the thing. And the person who taught me this is a guy named Ed Jenkins. British guy, works for, I think, big pharmaceutical company now in the UK. And he went through some, he doesn't mind me mentioning his name, because I want to give him credit for this, that statement, Laura, that I just said, because we did this program for him and his managers and all the salespeople. And it went very well. And I'm always curious, like, why did it work? You know, I have my own ideas, but who knows? You know, so I like to interview people. We like to follow up people and all that. And I asked him, he said, well, the essence of what you're, he goes, I always used to see these conversations as something I had to win. And now I realized, no, they're a collaborative search for the truth. And it goes, when I think about it that way, even just thinking about it that way, it just goes so much better. And so that has stuck with me ever since he said it two years ago.
Laura
Wow, that's a good one. I think people in relationships need to hear that as well. You know, just approach every discussion argument that way. Could change massive, massive, rather than just looking for who's right and who's wrong and who's to blame versus, yeah, let's discuss what is the truth.
TODD HOLZMAN
It's hard, you know? I mean, I have, you know, just luckily I met the love of my life eight years ago, Olga is also just amazing. A comedic actress who is a writer, director, and producer. She's created a reality show, a reality sitcom called Olga Knows Best? Question mark. And because it involves her in it, you know, because I'm kind and kind of whipped. And so why am I telling you that? Because when things are really tense, it's hard not to get into this blame thing.
To get into an argument to demonstrate who was right and all that kind of nonsense. But I will say what she's taught me, I think probably unintentionally, is the importance of pushing past your initial rejection of what somebody else says. Because she's a very creative person and she'll say something and my first reaction is, where the heck is that coming from? You know, because she smells something, you know, and she says something and it doesn't conform to the dictates of reason and logic and data that I am used to in business. Right. But then when I hold that mini monster at bay, I say, okay, why do you say that? And then I start to listen more and listen more and ask a few more questions. Nine times out of 10, it might be 10 out of 10, but at least nine times out of 10. Maybe it wasn't exactly what she was saying initially, but there was something there that I was not seeing at all. At all. I was like, wow. And that just gives you some fricking humility to realise your initial reaction is wrong so often. It's horrible.
Vicki
My partner's quite used to that too.
TODD HOLZMAN
Of course with you I understand that. He's lucky. He's lucky for all this wonderful learning. Okay. No, of course you are.
Vicki
I’m not saying that, he says that. I'm just being funny. I just want to keep talking for hours. I want to sit, you know, I want to invite you over for lunch, Todd. This is a beautiful conversation. There's so much more we can unpack. I can't wait for your book because I'm ready to read it. I'm ready to share it with the world. Perhaps when you've written and published that book, it's time for another episode on Resilient Entrepreneurs.
TODD HOLZMAN
Okay, I would love it. Yeah.
Vicki
We'd love to invite you back. It's a great conversation.
TODD HOLZMAN
And I am doing some behind the scenes content as well in the meantime, because I have a writer who's helping with this. So I thought, I don't know. Well, first of all, good content for social media, but why not push some of this out if it could be of use while I'm on the journey? So we're recording all of our writing sessions and we're cutting them up for these like, you know, some of these things, these principles and again, can push them out. So, you know, if your listeners want access to them, they can kind link in with me. Todd Holzman, that's straightforward. There aren't, I don't think there are many of us. But also if your listeners want, we put together some free content. So if they just email my PA and they put your names in the subject line, my PA Lace will know what to do. And her email is Lace, L-A-C-E @ Holzman, H O L Z M A N.com. And it's like just free stuff that hopefully is useful and inspiring.
Vicki
Fantastic. Thank you for that generous offer. And we'll be sure to include all of that in the show notes as well.
Vicki
Yeah, well Laura, did you want to wrap us up?
Laura
I just wanted to ask the one question we haven't asked yet, Todd. This is called Resilient Entrepreneurs and we haven't asked you at all your thoughts on resilience. What does that mean to you?
TODD HOLZMAN
It probably means to me what it means to many people is...
A Theodore Zeldin quote just came to my mind. I think the quote is something like, “Love is what makes life worth living, even when it's painful.” And first of all, I'm going to struggle to connect that to your question, but perhaps it's the ability to endure difficulty and keep going despite the adversity. And then maybe the question is, well, what does it take? And there are people who are, I think, far more researched and expert in that question than I am. But what does occur to me, and it goes back to the conversation we're having at the very beginning about the entrepreneurs who, in your audience, I think it definitely comes down to having a real sense of purpose and mission about what you're doing back to Nietzsche. You know, you can endure any how if you have a compelling reason why. And then also I think being quite truthful in your life is important. Clinical psychologist, Jordan Peterson, had this lovely quote I heard the other day, “The truth is the handmaiden of the good.” And making these conversations with each other, you're being quite truthful and you're seeking the truth from other people. I think that will teach you what you need to learn along the way so that you can be more resilient because being more resilient often requires, I think, adaptation and learning and how are you going to learn if you can't give and receive truthful conversations. And maybe that's also how you help other people do the same.
Laura
Yeah, you nailed it. You summed that up perfectly because it's absolutely everything we've talked about today and such the great point of how that helps others. As a business owner, especially if you're in the early stage, we know these things are tough, having those tough conversations, the importance of them has to supersede your own internal worry about having… the conversation, because they're tough and it is tough to do tough conversations and sometimes you need to fire someone or you need to move on from something or somebody just isn't performing and these things are hard and we often don't want to do this stuff so we avoid it and it just causes more and more stress and chaos down the line. So being authentic, having these conversations, so so so important and to get it right.
And listening, I think a lot of what you said about listening, it really resonated to take the time to listen, hear the whole problem. Don't hear, we've not hit our sales quota and go, okay, this is what we could do to hit our sales quota. No, no, no, no, no, listen to why, because they might know why and they might need help with one thing, right? And you're trying to fix all this other stuff and they're like, okay, now what do I say? It's my manager. I don't know what to say to them. They've just told me what to do, so I'm going to shut up and go away. They're not going to come back again and ask for more help, right? So we have to remember, take the time so that you don't shut down somebody else in the process of communication. Because it's easy to jump into fix-it mode. A lot of us want to do that. I think it's kind of normal. But it's great. I really appreciate all those points you made on that. I just want to thank you so much for joining us. This has been an incredible conversation and one we don't want to end. And I hope to definitely have you on again soon especially because you're writing a book. Congratulations, writing a book, it's a big deal. Okay, just an app, just an app as well.
TODD HOLZMAN
And developing an AI app and all that stuff too. Just that, because I want to make this stuff available to the world at an affordable price versus the 0.1% inside of these large companies and some smaller companies that are able to get access to what we do.
Laura
So you're on a bigger mission. You want to reach more people.
TODD HOLZMAN
Yep, for sure. That's the whole point.
Laura
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's one thing teaching one-on-one. It's a whole other thing when you write a book and have an app that can then reach millions. Well, thank you, Todd. This has been fantastic. I really appreciate your time and great conversation and come back to Bermuda anytime. Let me know. We'll out for coffee.